Creative Enthusiasm and Staying Inspired with Amani Roberts - Music Production Podcast #421

Amani Roberts is a DJ, Professor, Author, and Artist Coach. Amani teaches music business at Cal State Fullerton and helps artists reach their creative dreams. Amani is the author of DJs Mean Business and The Quiet Storm, a historical look at R&B Groups. 

Amani and I discussed the challenges artists face from creating music to releasing and sharing it with the world. Amani has powerful insights that can help musicians develop a strong body of work, while making constant progress and enthusiasm in their craft.

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Links:

• Amani's Website - https://www.amaniexperience.com

• Amani's Coaching - https://www.amaniexperience.com/coaching

• Amani’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/amaniexperience

• Book a Call with Amani - https://www.amaniexperience.com/call

• Bird by Bird by Ann Lamont - https://amzn.to/3PGjxIb

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.17)

Welcome Amani, nice to have you here today.

Amani Roberts (00:04.43)

Thank you very much, Brian. I'm excited to be here and chat with you.

Brian Funk (00:08.992)

Yeah, you know, I'm picking up on your enthusiasm right away. It's something I noticed in some of the video work that you have posted online. And I guess that's gotta be a crucial role if you're gonna be an artist, if you're gonna be a producer, if you're gonna be somebody that's trying to share things with the world. If you're not enthusiastic, you know, it's gonna be tough to find people to become enthusiastic for you.

Amani Roberts (00:29.294)

Yeah.

I would agree. It would translate very quickly to people if you weren't enthusiastic about your artwork, for sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk (00:38.22)

I think even a lot of the artists that come across as kind of just the artist, know, this is important, they do really deeply care, you know, just even get to that point to even share any kind of art with the world.

Amani Roberts (00:53.046)

Yeah, yeah, because when they they share the art, they put themselves out there for people to love it, hate it, criticize it. You remember what Erica Badu said? She said, I'm an artist and I'm sensitive about my, you know, stuff, paraphrasing. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10.964)

It's kind of funny though, because you have to develop a really thick skin as well. Because I don't know of too many other lines of work where rejection is just kind of the norm. It's really most of what people will see. Or if they're lucky, I think probably even indifference is really the big one.

Amani Roberts (01:34.838)

Yeah, yeah, which indifference is worse. Rejection, consistent rejection is what I would add to what you said, because for every 99 nos, you might get one yes, but you never remember the yes or always remember the no's. And then when you meet people who don't even respond or don't even care, that that hurts even more because indifference, think they say hate is not the opposite of love. It's really indifference, so to speak. So that that kind of relates to that.

Brian Funk (02:01.74)

Yeah, I've heard that too. It's not hate, it's just no feeling at all. Because a lot of good art is polarizing. Some people love it and other people, they don't get it, they don't like it, it rubs them the wrong way.

Amani Roberts (02:05.358)

Yeah, that's worse. Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (02:14.104)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (02:17.462)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:22.014)

So you've got some experience in the business as an artist. Do you want to tell us a little about how you got to where you are? And now you're coaching, you're speaking, you're helping artists with their art. So you don't come out of nowhere with this. You've got the chops to back it up.

Amani Roberts (02:32.856)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, thank you. It wasn't an overnight success. Really started as a DJ, probably now almost 20 years ago in LA. Just DJing local spots and then a close friend of mine told me I should go to Scratch Academy to learn really the real way how to DJ. So I went to that program and went through six plus an extra semester because I failed one of my final classes. I had to retake it, which was quite humbling but very rewarding.

Then I went back to Scratch Company for music production school and then all the way still performing, getting to bigger venues, concerts, and then private events, which was really good. And then I went to Berklee College of Music, get my master's in music business because I was a professor and I love being a professor. And then after that, just continuing to grow, wrote two books.

which is on the subject of music. One was basically taking the time slots of a DJ set and relating it to growing a business. That was the first one that came out in 2020. Then I wrote a book on the history of R &B groups, which came out a year ago. That made the USA Today bestseller list. And then just still performing and now I'm more into speaking. I bring music to the stage and then I coach the nine to five creative, basically people who work in nine to five, but

want to be are currently musicians and I help them kind of learn about making the best business decisions and then sometimes I'll work with them as well. So that's kind of a quick summary. That's my, you know, my history.

Brian Funk (04:12.787)

Right. Were you teaching in person at Berkeley?

Amani Roberts (04:16.952)

So I took classes online at Berkeley because it was during the pandemic. And so I went to the online program and then you could go there like once a year. And then I teach in person at Cal State University Fullerton. I teach music business there and I've been there now. It will be eight years in August. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:36.117)

Nice, very good. Yeah, I teach a music production, a sampling class with Ableton Live at Berkeley for the online. And I love it. It's been a real, I feel like I learned the most every semester, you know, cause you're listening to people's work and how they're interpreting the assignments and just being exposed to different styles of music, different approaches. And also just in our live classes, when they ask questions, go, yeah.

Amani Roberts (04:44.236)

that's great.

Brian Funk (05:05.545)

Yeah, okay, yeah. And even if you don't know the answer, you wind up doing the research so you can help them out later. Teaching is a great way to learn anything.

Amani Roberts (05:06.018)

Yeah, exactly.

Amani Roberts (05:12.078)

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, I love it. I tell my students the first day of class, the last day of class, say the first day I say I want to learn as much from you all as you all going to learn from me. And then the last day of class like see, I learned as much from you as you all learn from me. And so I agree with you. The questions we got to put in the parking lot because I got to come back to them and do research. So and then just to learn about like their musical taste, the musicians that they're feeling, how they really it's like technology.

What are they using to discover music, keep track of it, how they use technology? When I was like, I'll say coming up, but when we've heard a song we liked, we try to shazam it or write down the cover, the title of it. But now they'll just remember a lyric and type in the lyric into Google and that's how they find songs. It's so fascinating just how different they do research. So they teach me about these different apps. There's one, I have to find the name of it where...

Brian Funk (06:02.283)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (06:12.672)

Instead of doing a website, you'll just have a splash page and you can engage with the artists that way because it'll take you to different links. My students were the one that told me about LELO first in terms of texting and everything. Every class, I'm writing down notes and taking notes for sure.

Brian Funk (06:30.133)

that like a Linktree type of site? Where they Yeah.

Amani Roberts (06:32.29)

The splash page, yes. Lalo is doing the direct text messaging to your fans and that's how you collect their cell phone numbers and engage with them. The two I've kind of discovered that work well is like Lalo and I use Subtext because I'll send out music business news like twice a week and Subtext is also good when that's pretty popular with musicians. You also have Community and then the one that Ryan Leslie created, his is Superphone I believe.

Brian Funk (07:00.501)

Wow, so these are all direct to the cell phone, text message? Okay, so I've always found email to be the most effective way to reach people. mean, social media posts now, especially maybe back in the day when we first started social media, when you got the chronological feed, people would see your stuff, but once it became algorithmic and boosting the posts, suddenly you're getting no eyes.

Amani Roberts (07:04.706)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (07:28.16)

But email was at least consistent, but even email is so polluted with spam and stuff, but right to the phone, that's pretty cool. That's very direct.

Amani Roberts (07:33.112)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (07:39.694)

Yeah, that will... If you can get a fan's or a supporter's phone number and they give it to you, that's very precious. I still think email is valuable, although there's a lot of noise, because at least you own your email list. Like one thing I teach and train my artists is like, let's find a good lead magnet for you to put on your website so you can incentivize people who are visiting to just give you their email address, whether it's be an acapella version of a song.

Brian Funk (07:47.787)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (08:08.03)

or maybe it's a PDF of how to produce a certain beat or add a filter, something of value that you can get their email address and that way you can create more direct one-on-one conversations. If you can also get their cell phones at the same time, that's even more valuable because then you can really talk to them directly and that's what you'll see some big artists do because you want to get them into your ecosystem, into your kind of community and grow from there.

Brian Funk (08:33.897)

Hmm. I would imagine that that's not a direct link back to your cell phone,

Amani Roberts (08:39.528)

No, you would use like a special, special phone like, you know, subtext they give you a kind of a burner phone for lack of a better word. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (08:46.643)

Yeah. Okay. I guess I could see how that could be really good up to a certain level. And then it's like, my God, you know. but I have to imagine this probably different rules and etiquette to that kind of communication as opposed to, I mean, social media, can kind of blast and spam because they'll look at if they want to, they'll see it if they want to email is a little more delicate.

Amani Roberts (08:54.754)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (09:16.142)

Yeah, and it stopped.

Brian Funk (09:16.683)

But I would have to imagine cell phone, text message. Do you find there's any kind of convention with that? Is there a certain type of message you might send on a cell phone compared to, say, an email?

Amani Roberts (09:20.248)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Amani Roberts (09:30.51)

I think it's got to be quick and to the point and random. If you have a new song coming out and you're offering your fans early access, you could say, okay, you've got 48 hours to listen to this track before the rest of the public sees it. People like that because that's inter-sider access. It's really sharing, much less so selling. However, if you have a concert or show that's coming up,

And the good thing about cell phones is you can geo-target it. So say you have a show coming up in Atlanta. You can say, for all my people who are based in Atlanta, let me send them a text message saying, okay, pre-sales are going to open 36 hours from my concert. That's going to be Atlanta at this place. If you're interested, hit this link and get access. So if it's short, direct it to the point and you're not spamming people, but it offers value quickly and gives them that insider feeling.

then it works. But it can't just be little things here and there about all just put up a new post on Instagram or like this or like that. It's got to be really purposeful and really provide that feeling of being a VIP.

Brian Funk (10:26.506)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (10:37.022)

Hmm. Do you recommend any kind of frequency to that kind of communication?

Amani Roberts (10:42.574)

It depends on how often you're putting out content like releasing new music or you're having shows. So weekly can work if you have a lot of stuff coming out, but at least once a month so people don't forget about it either. So you kind of want to work that balance between a week to a month and just make sure it continues to be purposeful and you have a good call to action so they can take action.

Brian Funk (10:55.434)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (11:06.844)

Mm-hmm. That's kind of the new funny world we live in, right? Where you get forgotten about. You don't come out with new music in a year and forget it. You're off the radar. Whereas in the past, you could go a couple years. It was sort of understood. An artist might take some time, but not so much. guess you don't get to make those...

Amani Roberts (11:13.57)

Yes.

Amani Roberts (11:18.946)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (11:26.83)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (11:34.878)

big concept albums and then show up out of nowhere. Very few artists.

Amani Roberts (11:39.246)

Unless your name is Rihanna, then you don't have to come up with any music and you're getting more streams and you're getting, you know, growing. That's the exception to the rule, but you have to at least share content, share behind the scenes, even if you're not releasing music, but you're still having activity. Maybe you have a show here or show there. Just show that you're still getting the work done and that will really...

your fans at ease to let them know that you're still doing work and they still can see what you're up to and maybe you know you release maybe it's an official track it's like unofficial or an EP or you do a collaboration or you sing with someone you just have to show activity consistently in your own cadence you don't have to bombard people but they just like the fans like to know that you're still kind of with them on on the road so to speak yeah yeah yeah

Brian Funk (12:28.798)

Hmm. Yeah. Your journey is continuing. And now, yeah, we have a lot of fun creative ways to do that sort of stuff now. And it's not, it doesn't always have to be such a huge production. can just be kind of showing up and even, I'm in the studio. Here's the beat or we're putting together.

Amani Roberts (12:48.078)

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You can go live for five or 10 minutes. They're different. It's much easier now. You could say, you know, I'm doing this or I'm going to this concert or on vacation. You know, just kind of let people know you're OK and you're working on things and you're not just, you know, disappearing. Now, some artists can get away with disappearing and coming back completely. But for the majority of artists, you just have to continue to show activity so your fans will continue to support you and be ready.

Brian Funk (13:18.622)

Yeah, I guess that those are the artists that have really made an impact, a huge splash, their superstar status, where the news is chasing them, right? Yeah, Rihanna, like you said, someone like that.

Amani Roberts (13:29.374)

Exactly. Remember Rihanna, she's got other ventures. She got Fenty. So she got her whole beauty company. She's in movies. So she's created a brilliant kind of just different ways to reach people. So she's not releasing music, but she's been in a bunch of movies. She's got new products coming out. Like she always stays top of mind. And that's kind of the new model for artists is like, what else can you do?

besides your art to really stay top of mind. Whether it's a certain sponsorship opportunity, maybe you're dabbling into acting, maybe you start a podcast, different things you can do to stay top of mind so it's not always just about singing. Music.

Brian Funk (14:10.73)

Right. This day and age, right, where there's so much content, whether it's human-made or not, there's more than ever. To just show that kind of person side of you, the human side of you, seems to be more important than ever. I think it's our saving grace in the world we're entering.

Amani Roberts (14:22.926)

the

Amani Roberts (14:38.924)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (14:39.078)

having humanity and sharing that.

Amani Roberts (14:42.05)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. The more we get into using AI, the more we thirst and desire human experiences in person, just talking to a real person that is authentic and is not perfect.

Brian Funk (14:50.355)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (14:57.15)

Yeah, yeah, they're interesting. They're... And it's like you said, like, for me as a kid, I was wearing like ripped jeans and flannel shirts because I love Nirvana and the grunge movement, you know? And Rihanna's got makeup and movies and things that she's doing and fashion and those are things you don't get with just... It's not just the content.

Amani Roberts (14:59.758)

You

Brian Funk (15:22.12)

that you're putting out. It's also the person there. And it's almost always the first question I ask when I hear a song that I like, who is that? Who, who, who, who are the people behind that? And I guess that's probably made or break my enjoyment of the music many times. Like, it's them? Like you feel bad that you like it. Maybe it's, you know, for whatever reason, an artist you're not that down with and...

Amani Roberts (15:30.776)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right.

Amani Roberts (15:41.55)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (15:46.36)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:49.926)

suddenly it changes your taste in the song or makes you like it more. cool. That's,

Amani Roberts (15:52.876)

Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. That's funny. Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:01.489)

So I wonder if you find some connections with DJing and performing like that to also speaking in conferences or in classrooms or just in that kind of sharing of information. Do you see a similar performance aspect?

Amani Roberts (16:24.282)

Yeah, definitely with speaking in the classroom. think one of the most important skills as a DJ and yet one of the hardest skills to master because it's always changing is how to read a room. I think that you have to do the same thing when you're speaking. You have to read the room when you're teaching. mean, you definitely have to read the room because if students are starting to of doze off, get on their phones, leave, go to the bathroom, you have to really, really figure out ways to keep people's attention. I think that's a

Brian Funk (16:35.049)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (16:53.838)

distinct crossover when it comes to DJing, performing, to speaking. In addition, I bring the music to the stage. Whenever I'm speaking, I'm going to be playing music. I prefer to have my turntables up there so that I tell a lot of stories because I speak about creativity. I tell a lot of stories and use different groups and artists' journeys to exhibit the point. For example, if I tell a story about persistence, I might talk about the Supremes.

and how the Supremes were first signed and they were only allowed to clap hands on songs. And then eventually they got through to being able to sing backup. Then they were able to release their own music. They were called within Motown at first the No-Hit Supremes, but then they kind of blew up and went on an amazing run. So that's persistence, resilience. I like to tell a story either about the group, The Whispers. The R &B group took them 23 years to get their first Billboard 100 Top 10 song.

Even if I'm talking to younger students, I love to talk about a Chappell Rhone and how she released Pink Pony Club, then was dropped from the label five months later. Then she went home, was so humble she had to work in a drive-through coffee place, then came back to LA, got signed to a smaller label. Then eventually she kept at it. Her Friday, her first break was touring on her own smaller venues.

Then she was able to open up for Olivia Rodrigo for her, I think it was the Bern, I forget the name of the tour, Guts Tour. And then she was able to kind of continue to grow, got the Grammy for best new artist last year. Then just in November of this past year, Pink Pony Club hit over a billion streams. And so that was all, because she pretty much started putting up YouTubes in 2013 under her real name of Kaylee. And then she just reached

The billion streams on Pink Pony Club 12 years later, which in the music industry is relatively quick, if we're being honest. 12 years is not long, but for her it was long because we like to count the pandemic as dog years. She was right in it during the pandemic. I just like to tell different stories like that when I speak. It's always about music, performing. If I don't have my turntables, I have a little stream deck that can stream the music.

Brian Funk (18:52.681)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (19:03.451)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (19:14.872)

That's kind of my long answer to your question about performing and the kind of differences and what I bring across.

Brian Funk (19:18.153)

Hmm.

Yeah, reading the room, right. Of course. What is the reaction going on here? That is tough. Especially when you have a plan. As a teacher, I can relate to that. You got the plan and you're just watching it crash and it's just not hitting.

Amani Roberts (19:26.412)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (19:36.77)

Yes. So you got to pivot. got to adjust. One thing that I've learned is that if you have a plan and it's not working for teaching, I always have a couple backup activities, whether it's a video we can watch, whether it's a game we can play, then if all else fails, everyone loves trivia. So if you can create some trivia questions based on the lesson and give out some prizes, that works well too. And so...

Just having some backup plans which comes through experience because you know it works and what doesn't work. I try to for my lessons, I'm not sure how long your classes are. Most of my classes are about an hour and 15 minutes. I try to break it up in lecture at the beginning because I have their attention then. Then we do videos or something in a group. Then we'll come back and do sharing and talking as a group. Then we'll have an in activity which is some sort of gamification. Then open Q &A and then we're finished.

five or six different ways to teach. Some people are good visual learners. Some people are good learning. Some people learn by feeling, touching, experiencing. So if you can touch those each lesson, then you'll get more people involved because they'll know that they're going to have their preferred way of learning as part of the lesson. But that only came through a lot of learning and a lot of crashing and burning.

Brian Funk (20:58.697)

Yeah. Well, I, my Berkeley classes are usually pretty good and pretty good at, you know, nice energy. People want to be there. They paid money and they're excited and they're, we're talking about making music. We all love it. So everyone's excited. My day job is high school English teacher. This is a much different crowd. I mean, there's no way to.

Amani Roberts (21:09.292)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (21:17.39)

Wow.

So you get to practice twice a day. Wow, high school English.

Brian Funk (21:29.284)

hide it or you know it's it's not hidden they don't care if they don't not feel on it they'll put their head down like they don't feel bad they gotta go to the bathroom like mid big moment of lesson oh yeah yeah Johnny you yeah you with me okay can I go to the bathroom you know so that all that stuff but it does teach you about transitioning changing pace and

Amani Roberts (21:33.88)

Yeah, yeah. That's funny. Yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (21:48.352)

yeah, wow.

Brian Funk (21:58.323)

You know, and they don't want to be there, you know, and if you told them they didn't have to come, even no matter how much they love you, they love your class, like they wouldn't be there.

Amani Roberts (22:04.822)

Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's funny. High school English. So I use, do you ever have them read or study like Edgar Allan Poe? So it's funny because I use Edgar Allan Poe as a way to teach the different types of media that musicians have. So I take Edgar Allan Poe and we always ask, what's your favorite Edgar Allan Poe story or book or whatever? They'll share what theirs are. Then I say, well, take his last name. And when you look at marketing,

Brian Funk (22:14.802)

Yeah, sure.

Amani Roberts (22:34.422)

You have to do, you can do paid marketing, which is like ads you buy. You can have owned marketing, which is your website, maybe social media, your email list. They could have earned, which is when a magazine will write about you, not for fee or word of mouth. So I will use Edgar Allen Poe's so that they remember paid, owned and earned and it works very well. So that's my high school English reference for you. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:57.53)

Hmm. Yeah, that's good. It's a good memory tool as well. Just having those seemingly random connections that you're making. Well, there's an artist who, you know, even in his day really did not see the fame. I don't think he died knowing we'd be talking about him and we'd be reading them in classrooms.

Amani Roberts (23:07.042)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (23:22.092)

Yeah. Yeah, very true. Yeah.

Brian Funk (23:25.722)

Sometimes that's the way it goes, persistence or something. But he did build quite the body of work.

Amani Roberts (23:29.612)

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Amani Roberts (23:35.654)

Haha, we like that word, body of work. Yes, he put the work in, released all his art and it kind of, you know, when you plant seeds in a garden, his garden grew to be very, very lush over time.

Brian Funk (23:46.249)

So how do you bring that up with your, whether it's in your seminars or your students, this concept, the body of work, probably especially because I would guess a lot of those people are pretty early in their careers, so they're eager and they want everything to be the thing and probably putting a lot of weight on everything they're doing.

Amani Roberts (24:06.051)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (24:09.624)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (24:13.218)

Well, I try to use different examples of musicians they can relate to to show them what's possible. So a lot of, know, especially the younger generation, they love Taylor Swift, but I'll show them just how many albums she's released, what else she's released in between the albums, the ups and downs she's gone through to try to get back her songs, the dispute she had with Spotify when she took her music off.

So then they can see, okay, she's been releasing music for a good 15, 20 years. She's got this album, that album, she's telling a story, that's her body of work. Then we'll take an artist that maybe is a little bit more underground that they like, and I'll say, let's look at their body of work. And they might have one album, one or two albums out, they're releasing a third single. But then I'll also talk about, well, let's look at their tour. So let's see where they've gone on tour. Did they go on to a nightclub tour?

Okay, what cities did they visit? Then did they graduate to go to an opener for maybe a small amphitheater? Okay, so they're adding to their body of work. Then let's add in their merchandise. What's some of their early merch they've had? T-shirts, hoodies, stickers. This is all part of their body of work. They've kind of growing, graduating along the way. So they see that. Then we'll go to someone maybe very famous. Like we'll use Dolly Parton a lot as an example because she has got an amazing body of work between being a songwriter.

a performer, a host, owning an amusement park, being in movies, writing movies, having a TV show, albums in different genres that she was dipping into. I said, okay, let's look at her body of work and then we see. I show them that. Then we have an activity, particularly in class. I'm sure you've seen the little memes or challenges where you have like, you have $10 to spend and you must pick four artists and there's some in the $5 and the four and the three and the two. I have four or five of them I use.

I have one for all female artists. I you have a female super group. Who are you going to pick? What really gets them is that I'll say, who do you want to take out of the grid or who do want to move up or down? You might have, I think the top of the grid was Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Dua Lipa, and someone else. At the bottom, had maybe Selena Gomez, Brandi, Jasmine Sullivan, and some other people.

Amani Roberts (26:32.172)

So let's say, no, we need to move Jasmine Sullivan up or Selena Gomez, you need to take her off and add this artist on. And I say, why? And I say, okay, well, this artist, she's got this album that came out, this album that came out and that. So, okay, you're talking about their body of work basically and what they're done and what they're doing. So when it gets to like body of work, I try to show them different ways to evaluate it. And if someone gets it when I tell them the story about Dolly Parton, that's good.

Brian Funk (26:45.682)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (26:57.218)

But someone might get it when I break down and show them the grid. Like, I see. Well, this is why Lady Gaga, she's up on the five dollar level because not only does she have the acting, the singing, she has a residency in Vegas, et cetera. So that's kind how I teach and show people the different stages in terms of your body of work, but the importance of it. The best example is that I say, OK, you know that Dahlia Parton, she was very, very young in her career when she wrote I Will Always Love You. And then I say, you know, there was a time period in the middle.

where Elvis Presley wanted to cover that, but he wanted to take all the publishing from it and Dolly was like, absolutely not, because that's where the money is, the long money is. But then Whitney Houston came along and they were able to come to an agreement and the song makes her more money than any song she's ever produced. So you can see how something early on in your body of work can pay off later. You just have to all the rights. So then they learn about publishing and things like that. So I try to show them different examples, but get them to experience it along the way too.

Brian Funk (27:46.696)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (27:56.09)

I did not know that about Elvis. And to turn down Elvis, of all people, that takes, she is cool, man. It's a great documentary I saw on her recently and I was just like, what a...

Amani Roberts (27:57.966)

Yes. Yes.

Yes, amazing human being, yes.

Amani Roberts (28:09.582)

Oh, let me know because I read about her, I would love to watch the documentary.

Brian Funk (28:14.693)

Yeah, I got to figure out what it was called. was a couple months back. Relatively new documentary, but you just left it being like, what a bad-ass person, you know? Really just real, through it all, so real too. Not on another wavelength where she's unrelatable. She's a regular person, but brilliant songwriter.

Amani Roberts (28:24.622)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, very rare.

Amani Roberts (28:38.862)

Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.

Brian Funk (28:43.205)

business person too. Because I don't know if there's a lot of people that would tell Elvis, nah, you can't cover my song if you're, because Elvis could probably do almost anything he wanted. yeah, for that to come along with Whitney Houston was, that was like the biggest song ever when it came out.

Amani Roberts (28:50.924)

Yeah. Yeah.

Basically.

Amani Roberts (29:01.655)

It was, yes.

Brian Funk (29:03.589)

I heard a story about her, which I don't know if it's completely true, but I like to believe it's true because this is something that I can use to motivate myself when I need motivation, that she wrote that song and Jolene in the same day.

Amani Roberts (29:14.093)

Okay.

Amani Roberts (29:19.35)

I would believe it. Yeah. Now do you know why she wrote that song? Do know why she wrote, will always love you?

Brian Funk (29:21.168)

Brian Funk (29:24.921)

No, I don't.

Amani Roberts (29:26.126)

So she used to be on a TV show and be the cohost with Porter Wagner. And he brought her on as like her cohort host and they would also have music and produce music and do the show. And she was leaving and he was very mad and wouldn't speak to her. So the only way she could get her message across to him was to write that song. So that song is really her letter to him.

Brian Funk (29:36.449)

She's leaving, Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:46.12)

I think that's in the documentary actually that you mentioned it. Yeah. So I don't know if I even heard it in the documentary or just, you know, kind of myth and legend, but that she wrote them in the same day. And that is the thing that helps me a lot. Those days when I got time to make the music, but it's like, I don't know, I'm tired. Maybe I'll sit on the couch today, you know, cause I really believe that each time you sit down to

Amani Roberts (29:48.622)

Yeah,

Brian Funk (30:15.463)

create something is different. if after we speak, I've just spoken to you, I'm at a certain energy level, maybe the coffee that I'm drinking now is still kind of kicking and feeling good after having a nice conversation, I'm a different me than I will be say tomorrow morning. And what I'm going to write is going to be different. And whether I'm with people and that even if they're not writing the song with me, just because they're there, it's going to come out differently. So

It's like if she didn't sit down that day to write, she doesn't have those two songs. I don't know that you write those songs the next day. I think you kind of have to be there at the right time, which is a lot of my motivation to show up and kind of remember like, well, what Dolly Parton did, or something like that.

Amani Roberts (30:49.688)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (31:05.442)

Yes. Yeah.

Well, yes, that's true. And she's prolific. So she's probably still got thousands of songs in the archives that haven't even been released yet because she would just write and write whether she was on the tour bus in the hotel at home on a walk. She that's what she first started doing is writing songs and she's very skilled at it. So absolutely. I think it's the same thing as like when we're DJing. No two crowds are ever the same. They're always in a different emotional state, different people, different things going on. So I kind of draw that kind of

Brian Funk (31:32.433)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (31:38.85)

comparison to what you said.

Brian Funk (31:40.677)

Hmm, sure, yeah, different day, different news cycle, different venue. Yeah, and then you're different as the DJ here. You set them up with a different track maybe than you did yesterday and some.

Amani Roberts (31:45.358)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (31:52.59)

Yes, yes, we have our old, we have our ones that we can always go to, but we try to set it up in different ways. And then we have to mix in new music too. Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:01.543)

Mm-hmm. Mm.

I think that there's something to that that when we create, kind of when we do anything, I guess, really, but there's this whole chain reaction of things and ripple effects that all have to come together for something to happen exactly as it does. Almost like our planet, you know, just the right space, just the right age of the sun and all that. All the coincidences have to line up and...

Amani Roberts (32:30.273)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:36.399)

I like that way of thinking because I think it adds a little sort of magic to every moment. That, okay, like I'm gonna sit down today and this is gonna be a one shot only, one of a kind moment. Gets me through the procrastination sometimes because I face that a lot. I love making music like more than anything.

Amani Roberts (32:53.717)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:00.955)

But when I have the time to do it, I'm very often like, okay, well, maybe I'll just do the dishes. I'll clean a little, because I know I can get that done. I don't know if I'm gonna make anything good today, I can accomplish my chores.

Amani Roberts (33:06.178)

Yeah, yeah.

Amani Roberts (33:11.608)

Well, they say procrastination is a form of fear. so, know, fear of failure, but fear of success. That's probably one of the bigger fears that people don't consider. Like, how can I do better than what I did yesterday? And when yesterday I made an amazing song, how can I make an even bigger one? So I think procrastination is born a lot from fear.

Brian Funk (33:17.287)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:37.273)

I agree and I know it. I feel it and it doesn't get better. Like what the hell, you know? I find my experience, I know what I'm doing more. And this is one of the last video podcasts I did was about that. Like I've been doing it more and more and yet it's not easier. It might even be harder. Maybe I'm thinking about it too much because

Amani Roberts (33:40.084)

Me too! Me too!

Amani Roberts (33:46.636)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:06.373)

The first time I pick up a new instrument or try a new plugin or something, it's exciting and I'm playing with it. And I guess the expectation is low because I don't really know how to work it yet and fun things happen. But then once I learn it, when I get accustomed to it, then it's like, well, you should know what you're doing now. Something good should happen. And then that kind of cloud is hanging over everything I'm doing and I'm questioning if this is good. Am I doing it? Am I?

Amani Roberts (34:24.95)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (34:35.205)

living up to where I should be at this point. And not a lot of good comes out of that thinking.

Amani Roberts (34:38.702)

Yeah, that's no, I just got to kind of what do they say? Acknowledge it and keep moving forward is the best way. Just acknowledge it. So we're not going to pretend it's not there and then just keep moving forward so it doesn't completely railroad the creative process.

Brian Funk (34:58.439)

So take a minute, realize it's happening.

Amani Roberts (35:01.388)

Yeah, acknowledge it and then just keep moving forward and try to get something done. The same thing happens with writing. Writing a book, you can get stuck very easily. Or you get stuck editing it, which is the same thing as you're trying to add a filter or add some new things to a song that you're producing or creating. You can get stuck in minutiae. Whereas if you would just write and don't edit until the end, that would help because it's the editing and the overthinking in the middle that stops many of us.

Brian Funk (35:31.463)

Yeah, I can see that as an English teacher, someone that likes to write. And as a music producer where you got the loop, it sounded kind of cool. then, all right, let's start compressing the kick drum and let's do the fine detail work before we have the whole canvas filled out. And the best thing you can get at that point is a really cool corner of your canvas or section of your song and everything else is empty or

Amani Roberts (35:36.785)

Yes!

Amani Roberts (35:42.051)

Yeah.

Exactly. just, you know.

Amani Roberts (35:49.858)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (36:00.94)

still underdeveloped. I find that with writing sometimes it's a little bit easier. I'll just read what I wrote yesterday and I'll fix that up.

Amani Roberts (36:09.646)

Don't do it. Don't do it. Yes, don't do it. I remember, I wish the book is around me somewhere. I have to get it because I always refer to it. It's Anne Lamott and she talks about Bird by Bird. Okay, so you know it. She talks about, I don't like the curse, but she talks about shitty first drafts. That's what we want to produce. That's good. I'm glad you know the book and you like it because it's really, really good, especially for the writing process.

Brian Funk (36:21.09)

I love that book. Yeah. Yeah.

huh.

Brian Funk (36:30.499)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (36:35.992)

It is. Sure, and it's all rooted in that story, I think, with her father about...

Amani Roberts (36:42.786)

her brother who's doing a report on the birds and he was stressed out because he waited to the last minute. said, father, just be patient. Let's just take it bird by bird. And they did the project and worked on that. And it's a great metaphor. Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:45.52)

Right.

Brian Funk (36:55.352)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, one thing at a time and it adds up eventually, you know? It's like the body of work. Like you just keep plugging away. Suddenly you have a body of work. Yeah, that book's full of great advice and...

Amani Roberts (36:59.022)

Yeah. This is true. is true. Yes.

Amani Roberts (37:13.166)

I recommend it to all of my authors. All of them. Yeah. It should be required reading.

Brian Funk (37:16.23)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you can think it's literally about writing, but you can just take that and it's a metaphor for everything. Life, music, all that stuff. That's a lot of times when I'm talking to people on this podcast, I feel like we're talking about life, but we're doing it through the metaphor of music.

Amani Roberts (37:24.918)

Life. Yeah, life, exactly.

Amani Roberts (37:37.934)

I feel that way already. Yes, thank you.

Brian Funk (37:40.551)

Yeah, welcome. Welcome to the show. This is where we wind up. What are we really talking about here? Yeah, but I know that feeling of you want to perfect something and get it good, but it happens a lot in my mixes too where I'll work on, we got the drum track down. Okay, great. I'm going to get them sound really good. And yeah, now they sound great, right?

Amani Roberts (37:47.5)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (38:10.106)

But I've filled up the entire frequency range and my dynamic range. And now we got to add the bass and the guitar and the keys and all. There's no room. Right? So I got to dial it back anyway and change everything anyway. And I can very often find myself getting my work into this like moment of completion, but the idea is not there yet. Just as if I was doing a painting where I'm focusing on this first corner first.

Amani Roberts (38:17.166)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (38:34.904)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (38:39.694)

Hahaha

Brian Funk (38:41.294)

And you know, if you do any painting, you'll never really quite get those colors to match in the other corner, you know, cause you're to have to start over with your paints and that winds up happening. it's, but it is fear. I do agree. Cause the kind of editing stuff, the technical stuff that comes in when you start EQing and compressing things too early, that's not the...

Amani Roberts (38:49.506)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (39:07.48)

Huh.

Brian Funk (39:09.538)

artistic, well it can be artistic but it's not the creative part of writing the music and making the statements and all.

Amani Roberts (39:13.81)

yeah.

Yeah, fear holds so many of us back. Just fear of many, many things, but it's really, really the antithesis of the creative process.

Brian Funk (39:26.724)

Hmm. Yeah. It hasn't done so well. I guess sometimes you can channel it a little bit. And what you said about acknowledge it, I think is helpful. I know sometimes before live performances, I'll notice like, okay, I'm getting a little jittery. So all right, okay, here it is. I'd like to do like stretches and like, you know, a little warmup exercises and then, all right, we're gonna.

Amani Roberts (39:51.138)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:55.707)

this is going to be part of the, I guess like fertilizer or something for the show and then put it in there.

Amani Roberts (40:00.11)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (40:04.788)

I like it. Yeah, that's what you gotta do, for sure.

Brian Funk (40:10.416)

Do you find your students have any particular things they either keep coming back to or like stuff that artists struggle with in particular that you're able to help them through a bit? Any kind of common things that your experience has helped you through?

Amani Roberts (40:31.766)

Yeah, I would say the things that most of my students, whether it be in my class I'm teaching or my coaching students, clients, the fear of what people will think, fear of failure, fear what their friends will think, those are probably the three most common issues that you try to, because you know, if you're like a fractional artist manager, you're helping them with their creativity, but you're also kind of a therapist too. And so,

just making sure that they're well aware of the success they've already had. Really one success is they're showing up and creating because most people will not show up. They say 80 % of the game is showing up. And then if they've had some success in the past, just remind them of what they've achieved in the past, how well they did. And I feel sharing different stories, like I've shared a few stories with you about different artists, about some of the most famous artists have also struggled too.

I think that once people hear that, will ease a little bit of the fear and will give them some inspiration because like, okay, well, I didn't know that a Dolly Parton went through this or a Chaperone went through this or different groups had their struggles. People don't realize that because we don't talk about that, especially nowadays. It's all perfectly curated on Instagram and TikTok and everything. If you share stories, personal stories too, I tell them about how I mentioned it briefly in the beginning, like how...

I was at Scratch Academy and I didn't pass the last class. I missed it by two points. So I had to take it over again. It was very humbling. Everyone knew, but I was able to kind of check my ego at the door, come back, be of service to everyone in the class and get one of the highest scores ever for the final class, which there was no guarantee that I would pass because it's very subjective. We're performing. And just how you just said it, like I could be having a bad day. Maybe I got in a fight with like, you know, a girlfriend or maybe, you know,

Something happened in a family member is sick, so you're distracted. There's no guarantee that life is going to be perfect for you to perform. If I tell them the story about that and then I might show them a video reading different autobiographies, one of my favorite autobiographies from an artist is Charlie Wilson from the Gap Band and how he went from being very, very famous in the Gap Band to being homeless on drugs to now he's at a very high level again. I just think that a combination of all that, particularly stories.

Amani Roberts (42:57.646)

Letting people talk, letting them kind of analyze their fear, maybe even write about it. And then just continue to remind them of their success, which people seem to forget quickly. That's what I've used for all my coaching clients to help them get through some of their tougher times.

Brian Funk (43:14.629)

Yeah, the public opinion, the friend opinion even, the family opinion of it can be. Yeah, because I guess something that I've run into myself is this idea of sort of getting like psychoanalyzed by your art. Where I like to play around with characters in the songs and...

Amani Roberts (43:20.302)

Family opinion, that's the hardest, yeah.

Brian Funk (43:41.402)

They might be thoughts I had, but I don't necessarily believe it, but I'm playing around and exploring it and trying it on for size and maybe even making a little fun out of it. But I don't want to just have somebody be like, so what's going on with you, man? I heard what you said in that song. Or like wonder like, Hey, what is that? Is that about me or something like that? Where sometimes it's wordplay. Sometimes it's just.

Amani Roberts (43:59.117)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (44:03.576)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:09.379)

Yeah, there's that thing going on and that character exists somewhere in here. But I also know he's an idiot, but he's the star of the show today in this song. and yeah, that can, that can be a big one. I find that a lot. And I've noticed that with people too, that, they're like, well, you know, I don't know if I want to put this one cause it's going here and there and tricky waters to navigate.

Amani Roberts (44:17.012)

Right.

Amani Roberts (44:35.714)

Yeah.

Yeah, but I would always urge people to just release it because the people that you think are thinking about you, they're not thinking about you. And so just put it out there because it can also really, really resonate with someone who needs to hear it. So don't don't let them. I forget the right word, but don't prevent them from having access to the song because you're worried about someone else who might not even be thinking about it. Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:43.641)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:48.421)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (44:58.137)

Yeah, so often the case. There's that old expression, like when I was a kid, I was worried what everyone thought about me. And when I was like an adult, I stopped caring. And then when I got old, realized no one was thinking about me in the first place. yeah. Right. I found the body of work a good way around that. Just flood it, put as much as out there. So you got

Amani Roberts (45:11.31)

Yeah, exactly. Yes. The sooner you realize that, the better. Yes.

Amani Roberts (45:21.554)

Mm-hmm. Yes. Keep creating, keep putting work out there and the bigger the body of work, the less you'll be worried about what people think because, you know, there'll be so much out there. You'll be so focused on putting more things out, you'll have less time to worry about it, think about it.

Brian Funk (45:41.348)

I wonder if you have some thoughts or approach on people. I see people like this sometimes, especially through Berkeley, because now they've paid money, right? Sometimes people that have paid money for lessons and consulting and all of that, they're very invested in it. And sometimes those are the people that produce and release the least amount of work. They're working at it all the time, but they'd never quite take it to the finish line.

It's like, yeah, obviously you're investing, you're spending a lot of time and money in this. So what's going on? that's, I think it's a case by case thing, but I wonder how you approach that, that kind of person.

Amani Roberts (46:16.365)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (46:23.138)

Yeah. Yeah, we like to call that like the art of finishing. And so I kind of put that as a parallel because you'll see a lot of people who will invest by these classes, they'll invest in equipment and they never take action. That happens a lot. they get out there so worried about buying the next, you know, amp or the best microphone or this new software or these new plugins.

Brian Funk (46:29.273)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (46:51.48)

but they never ever take action or they take action but never finish. They love to start a project and never finish. And this is also true in life. People will talk about, I need to lose weight. I need to eat better. I need to get a new job. You know, I need to stop talking to this person, but they never do it. Once again, fear, fear of the process, fear of failure. So I love to live by the mantra of done is better than perfect. So...

I really try to encourage and coach and work with my artists and my people to let's just finish something. Let's finish something, put it out, check it and move on to the next. I try to walk them along the way of... We try to set up in small steps. Say if we're writing a song, we're producing a song, we've written the lyrics, check. Let's come back tomorrow, let's write some harmony, check. Let's write some melody, good. Now let's maybe create and just look for a reference track.

That's all we're going to do today. We're going look for a reference track of what you want the song to sound like. OK, we got a couple. Good. Now let's try to sing and produce and add drums to it. And maybe one day we add drums. Let's add some strings another day. Now we're to sing vocals. Now let's sing the ad libs. I find if you if you divide things up into little steps, it's like we were smaller playing Super Mario Brothers and we go from one level to the next level to the next level. Same way we love the ways our brains are wired. We love accomplishing things. Love gamification.

So if we can set up like a game and like we have 20 steps to get to, let's go to level one, level two. Okay, we're pause level two. Let's go out and get your favorite cup of coffee from Starbucks. It could be a sweet mocha, whatever. That's good. We did that today. Then we come back. It could be the next day of next week. We do three, four and five. Okay, let's go to your favorite restaurant for breakfast. That a lot of things that I love around food, but maybe you get to level 10. Okay, now we can reward yourself. You can buy something. Just set up.

Brian Funk (48:21.796)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (48:47.418)

small steps that are easy to accomplish that help you celebrate wins. You get a win, you're more encouraged to keep coming back and doing more. So I like to set that up with my people that I work with because it really keeps their inspiration high and their motivation high. And then we finish things and we just set up little games and do it that way. That's what I've seen, help people both finish and then help people take action. And I think those are the two things.

I just see more and more nowadays people just love to talk about doing something but never take action or they can't finish. That's what I do to help them along the process.

Brian Funk (49:27.522)

Yeah, well all that stuff feels like making progress. Like, I got the new mic and now it's going to sound great. Well, I got to learn how to use it now. So now I'm still, but I'm still being productive because I'm learning it, right? And well, if I had the mic and I probably need the amp or I need, so let me learn how to get this thing. And we're still doing stuff, but kind of not doing stuff at the same time. It's a sneaky thing.

Amani Roberts (49:32.512)

Ha ha ha.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta do this stuff and get things done for sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:54.309)

But that's a nice approach. It's the kind of victory, it's a little bird by birdish, right? One step at a time. But you're also, like you said, highlighting those victories. Like, well, hey, look, we got to here. We did these, we did this, we did something today. We made progress. And it is important to point that out. Probably we would all love to show up one day and come out with the mastered

Amani Roberts (49:58.508)

Yeah, yeah, there you go. parallel. Nice callback. Nice callback there.

Brian Funk (50:24.16)

new number one hit, right? But the fact that you got the idea down, you got the maybe the sketch or maybe you got a new track layered. A friend of mine said this to me years ago. I think while I was working on the first solo album I ever made, he said, like, I know if each day I just record one part, eventually I'll have a finished album. And I kind of took that to heart. was like, okay.

Yeah, you're right, because I'm only going to put so many guitars. And at that time I didn't have infinite tracks. I was limited to, I think, like 16. So it's like, all right, yeah, that's 16 days. Right? And then that's two a month, kind of.

Amani Roberts (50:58.518)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (51:05.368)

There you go. Yep. Yep. There we go. That's 24 a year. I found that many of my artists, the songs that they finish that they don't like, a lot of people like it. Like for some reason the public will like it. And so that's what you'll hear a lot with artists. The songs that they think are going to be the best singles end up not being the best singles, but the songs that they kind of discounted end up being like really, really good songs that people love.

Brian Funk (51:11.95)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (51:33.922)

So that's why it's more important than ever to just release it. You never know. You could not like it, but it could really resonate with your fans or a certain people, certain group of people, and then you're off and running.

Brian Funk (51:43.909)

And like you said, it's almost wrong not to share it because there might be that person that really needs it. Yeah, maybe I was not connecting with it completely, but it hit on something for someone else. Sometimes too, you listen back to your old stuff and you're like, wow. I was like looking in the future here because this is where I'm at now.

Amani Roberts (51:48.408)

Yes. Yes.

Amani Roberts (51:56.928)

Absolutely.

Amani Roberts (52:04.536)

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Brian Funk (52:06.5)

At that point though, when I start getting in my head, creating and thinking like, this any good? Like, no, this chords are kind of basic and you know, I need to be more clever. I think sometimes to those artists, they don't even know when they're doing it in the moment anyway. They didn't think that was going to be the hit song. So even when you're actually doing it, you don't know. So it's almost pointless to even think about.

Amani Roberts (52:23.523)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (52:29.996)

Yeah. If we looked at the B-sides of singles, particularly back in the day, the B-sides of singles that ended up being bigger than the single, we could write encyclopedias. There's so many. Yes, there's so many. That's the beauty of back in the day, the B-sides. Nowadays, we have less B-sides because they just release things singly, but even some of the more hidden tracks on an EP could end up blowing up years later. Just look at Pink Pony Club. This song came out in April of 2020.

Brian Funk (52:36.515)

Hmm.

Some DJ just flipped it over.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (52:58.976)

It took that song five years, but then it kind of blew up and hit got a billion streams. Like the record label saw it wasn't doing well in five months and dropped her. They kept working the song and five years later, it really kind of hit the stratosphere. That's that's a good example of. What happens sometimes?

Brian Funk (53:19.534)

Yeah, I didn't know that. yeah, it was like one day, Chappelle Rowan, who is this pink pony? Like, why is everyone talking about this? Where did this come from? And I figured it just came out.

Amani Roberts (53:29.996)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's what many people think. Like I have this video. It was on social media. I use it in my speeches. It kind of the close out this portion of the story. It shows her. think she was at Auburn, Auburn University, and she was playing her Casio keyboard and singing that song about 40 or 50 people. People weren't paying attention to her. Then it fast forward to when she's singing that song at Lollapalooza. hundred fifty thousand people in Chicago and the crowd is chanting and everything.

And it's just an amazing, you get goosebumps when you watch it. It's an amazing video. And that just shows you the progress. And that was five years. It took more than five years.

Brian Funk (54:07.959)

Yeah, that is wild. One of my favorite things about YouTube is you can go back and look at the artists like before they were big. This video I watched recently of Rage Against the Machine playing at like just a fair, you know, like no one's there really. And you're just like, whoa, like, like how do they not know this is, but no one knew yet. it was, the fuse was lit and it was getting close to the bomb, but it just hadn't gone off yet.

Amani Roberts (54:15.511)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (54:19.707)

nice. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (54:28.824)

No one knew, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:36.749)

but you see everything is in place. There's a lot of good stuff of seeing artists just before and in hindsight you can recognize, course, look at this, but in those moments, and it's like, guess, five years is a long time, but ask Edgar Allan Poe, right? Like he didn't even get it in his lifetime.

Amani Roberts (54:48.142)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Amani Roberts (54:59.918)

Yes. Five years is not really, when you're looking at the, it's not really a long time. Like I think what's the saying, I heard Tony Robbins say this one time, people, I want to say they overestimate what they can do in a year, but underestimate what they can do in 10. I think that's the saying. And so that's very similar to, I wonder who said that because that has to be someone, I'll have to Google that. So you said that, but it's very true. Very true. Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:06.083)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:17.175)

Something like that, yeah.

Brian Funk (55:26.785)

Yeah, I've heard that sentiment that it's like compound interest or something kind of applies that way too. You think you're not making any money saving. Don't take financial advice from me because I'm not investing anything in anything, but I've heard people say that's how it works.

Amani Roberts (55:31.352)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (55:36.46)

Yeah.

Hahaha!

Yeah, but if you think remember the whole thing is if you you get a penny a day it compounds and soon you have like a million dollars. I think a penny a day over 30 days or something is there's some some math you double it every day.

Brian Funk (55:52.483)

Yeah, it double letters, Tomorrow I get two, tomorrow, next I get four.

Amani Roberts (55:58.488)

for after the end of 30 days, you have like a lot of money, I want to say.

Brian Funk (56:03.605)

I remember learning that in grade school and then asking my parents, hey, instead of like my a dollar a week allowance, what if you just gave me a penny every day and then the next day gave me two? They're like, get out of here.

Amani Roberts (56:14.168)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When back then it could have helped, you know. Could have bought you another amp. well said, well said. Yeah, we don't want that. Maybe no amp then, no amp.

Brian Funk (56:22.328)

Yeah.

Then I'd have to learn that amp. good, then I can avoid the scary stuff.

Yeah, I'm a big believer these days in working real fast too, for this reason, just to accumulate that body of work and things. I like not giving myself the time to really question things. Just make, make, make, make, make, make, make. I definitely think there's something to be said of spending your time and crafting something. I just really find I am often...

going through that process, know, of going through all the levels of Super Mario Brothers as often as possible. I think, I'm sure you could get through that first level of Super Mario Brothers with your eyes closed. If you played at all. I've had my high school students play that game and they've run right into the first bad guy. like, what? Like, person I know my age is laughing at you, right?

Amani Roberts (57:06.264)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (57:15.907)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (57:22.75)

nice.

Amani Roberts (57:26.082)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (57:30.04)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (57:32.27)

But we've done that so many times, but you get to that last level and it's much harder. know, things get tricky and it's like in music and creating something is we don't get to that last level until the end. And if we don't get to the end, we never exercise that muscle and we don't get good at it. But when I, when I'm working fast and I'm doing that consistently, like I get in a flow and like that last level is as easy as that first part.

Amani Roberts (57:48.12)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (58:00.174)

jump right over that bad guy in the beginning just like I do the final boss, you know?

Amani Roberts (58:00.73)

Yeah, there you go. Yes, and you saved the princess, yes. But repetition helps, you've done it so much, it's like a strong muscle now.

Brian Funk (58:06.573)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:13.091)

But it's like a muscle because as soon as you miss a day at the gym, you're going backwards now. think you just that the treadmill is always going.

Amani Roberts (58:18.307)

death.

You gotta keep, yep, you gotta keep working the muscle, just like creativity. Just like creativity is a muscle, you gotta keep working that too, otherwise you'll become stagnant.

Brian Funk (58:31.837)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. How do you like the world as a writer? You got a couple of books and there's a nice form of torture you put yourself through, Writing is another dimension of hell.

Amani Roberts (58:33.166)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (58:38.626)

Ha

Amani Roberts (58:42.49)

yes, that is not only writing is torture, but then the whole releasing of the book process. Like when you finish writing it, you're only a third of the way done because then you have to do all the editing. Then you have to release the book. Then you have to promote the book. And that doesn't end for years. So the first time my first book writing really kind of tripped me up because when I got my first edits, I took it very personal and it.

cost me about four or five months in the process where I just put it down and didn't even want to look at it. As a result, my book came out in April 2020 in middle of pandemic. Whereas if I had checked my ego, maybe it would have come out sooner. I could have had a little bit more success early on. That was a very valuable lesson because when my second book came around, which took me an overall four and a half years to do the research and writing and finish and release, when I got the edits back, I did them right away. Check my ego, said, okay, I trust you. I believe you. What do need to do?

made the edits, which were significant, added what I needed to add and kept the process going. I suffered everything we've talked about today. I suffered through writing the second book, Imposter Syndrome. Who am I to write a book about R &B groups when there are many, many, many people out there who are more knowledgeable than me? Who am I to call it the quiet storm when that's like a celebrated radio format, but it actually worked out good that I called it that? Just all sorts of things. Fear. What if no one buys the book?

What if I don't? These are metrics that aren't really important, but what if I don't get on the USA Today Best Seller list? That really caught me up for the last month because I was working really hard, texting people, messaging, doing press on TV, podcast interviews. What if I'm doing all this work and I don't make the list? What if I do all this work and it's a flop? Even still, I just kept at it. I said, okay, I acknowledge it. Just keep at it. I had good people around me supporting me too.

That's another thing in the creative process. If you have people around you that aren't good for your creativity, it will stop you. I remember for me, I had someone around me I was dating that was not good for my creativity. I had to get away from that person and eliminate that person from my life so that I could keep the creativity and start back again. It took me about a good year, year and a half. In that four and a half years from the time I...

Amani Roberts (01:01:06.605)

I finished my thesis, which was December 2021. Then for me to start writing again, I went to a wedding in Chicago, I want to say it was summer of 2023. In that time period, I had written a little bit, I probably got 20 or 30 % of the work done just in that 2022 to 2023 time process, but I was stuck.

So then I got that person out of my life. Then I went on this writing retreat. So I went to the wedding a week early, Minnesota, the wedding was in Chicago, and I wrote for all week and probably finished 60 % of that book at that time period. And that was the ignition to really keep me off and running. I finished the rest at home, sent it to editing, the whole editing process and all that. So by the time I sent it to editing, was probably April or May of 2024. And we went through the process of the cover design.

adding in some other items. I wanted it to come out in Black History Month. In February 2025, the book came out. That was my journey. That's why writing can be very torturous depending on what's going on in your life and how you prioritize.

Brian Funk (01:02:20.546)

I got a couple of quick questions on that.

Amani Roberts (01:02:24.43)

Talk to me!

Brian Funk (01:02:28.456)

Okay. just for probably humorous sake, when you got your edits back, how much, most of it is probably cutting it out, right? Like too much, too much. How much of, how much did you submit and how much did you receive back? How many pages or word count or something like that?

Amani Roberts (01:02:43.886)

Great question. Okay. For this book here, I had turned it 131,000 words, approximately. That's a lot of words. They cut it, yes, yes. Yes, yes, you get it, you get it. They cut it down to probably about, yeah. They cut it down to probably about 82,000 words.

Brian Funk (01:02:53.364)

And you wrote, typed every one of them, right? So you care about them all. Yeah. You push that keyboard a million times to make that.

Brian Funk (01:03:08.106)

Okay, so that's what? That's almost like 30, 40%.

Amani Roberts (01:03:11.95)

That's right. They cut it about 30%, 35%. What happened is that I had included lyrics in the book and you can't do that. You need the rights to include lyrics. I didn't have them. They cut that down, but then I added back certain sections that were missing. It came back up to about 89, 90,000 words. It's like a 500-word book. The book is pretty... You can see how thick it is. The book is pretty thick here. On the camera, you see how thick this book is. It's not a little book. That was this one here. It was 90,000 words for 131. My first book...

Brian Funk (01:03:34.85)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (01:03:41.166)

I think I turned like 54,000 words. They cut it down to 27, almost half, 30, maybe 30,000. And then I added back to six, it was probably about 35,000 for the first book. So that's kind of what I turned in to what ended up being the final product. But it's beautiful. The editors were right. It works. I have no regrets.

Brian Funk (01:04:03.234)

Well, that's an outside perspective of somebody who didn't push the buttons on the keyboard over and over again, right? So they can be brutal. They can be real and objective. Whereas we get a little bit, I think it's like music too, you you hear a lot of groups writing, we wrote 50 songs for this record and we got 10 or whatever.

Amani Roberts (01:04:08.364)

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:28.492)

but it is a little tough when you're the one. It's even tracks in a song. got this track, this song has 80 tracks and I love them all. know, I programmed them all. then sometimes someone else listens, they're like, why don't you just take that out? This would be better without those 20 tracks. And you're like, what? I've had that feeling with my band doing vocals and getting these cool effects. And they're like, what would it sound like if you took all those effects off? I'm like.

Amani Roberts (01:04:36.716)

Yeah, yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:04:42.328)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:04:55.682)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:56.002)

That's not gonna be possible guys. That's three days of work and then they were right. You're like, So you have to, you definitely have to, guess, like you said, check your ego and also just see that nothing's really precious. You you cut it out and sometimes less is more. Okay.

Amani Roberts (01:04:59.48)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:05:02.786)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:05:17.314)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amen. Mm hmm. Preach. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:25.452)

then the other thing I wanted to ask you too is kind of a funny thing like that. I'm forgetting what I wanted to say now. It was a good one for you.

Amani Roberts (01:05:34.638)

So was it about, so you asked me the questions about cutting the words out. Was it about like getting people, was it about the writing retreat? Was it about getting people, okay.

Brian Funk (01:05:38.432)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:05:42.772)

It was about the writing retreat actually, yes. What was it about the writing retreat that was able to help you to get going? like, what are you doing in a writing retreat anyway? Like, what are the, is it activities? Is it just sit in a room?

Amani Roberts (01:05:57.612)

Yeah, yeah. like in my office, of course, of course, I get it. In my office, I would have these screens up. I'd have, you know, the phone around. I'd be around where there's lots of easy distractions. When I took myself away from my office, so there no distractions. you know, didn't have my dog to worry about. I was in a place where I knew no one. I just had to go somewhere to get meals. It's isolation. So you don't have to go from California to Minnesota. You can go on a staycation where it's very difficult for you to

Brian Funk (01:05:59.916)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:06:27.118)

get distracted by everyday things or notifications. So that was the first thing. I would use the Pomodoro method where I would write for 20 minutes, then take a five minute break. And I would do that morning, then I'd go somewhere for lunch. I'd come back, I'd do that in the afternoon, take a break, go for a walk, finish out a little bit, then dinner. And it was just that routine with no distractions. And there's like, like I'm not in a big city where, oh, I can go see my friend Jeremy, I can go see my friend Eric or Josh or...

Teen or whatever, like no distractions and no temptations. So I was just focused on writing. was able to go walk, get a little sunlight. Although it was kind of chilly even in July for Minnesota. And it was just the elimination of almost all distractions. And that's what was really beneficial. Yes. Solo trip. Yes. Yes. Like I flew from LA to Minneapolis. I then took another flight from Minneapolis to Duluth.

Brian Funk (01:07:13.312)

Were you alone? it some kind of, okay, so this was like a self-imposed, okay, right.

Amani Roberts (01:07:26.112)

I drove from Duluth, Minnesota two hours to Grand Marais, Minnesota right on Lake Superior and went to an Airbnb. And so I was far from anything and anybody. It was like a little town. And so then I would go down to the town center to eat my meals and that was it.

Brian Funk (01:07:42.38)

Hmm. So by this time you'd already written one. So you understood how things get in the way. Yeah. No, it's very true. And, especially for us producing music on computers or typing on computers, the entire human collection of knowledge is at your fingertips. It's so tempting and you can trick yourself into being like, well, I'll just look up how to like use this device that I'm playing around.

Amani Roberts (01:07:48.268)

Yeah. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:08:02.829)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:09.963)

The next thing you know, you're watching dogs, you know, running in circles, chasing their tails. And you don't know where you got here and what time is it. Yeah. Okay. mean, it's true. it's, I think there's been a big movement in musicians to get these like kind of groove box type things that are not connected to a screen or a computer. And people like that a lot because you're not, you're not like that.

Amani Roberts (01:08:12.2)

Exactly. You're down the rabbit hole. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:39.137)

you know, a little mouse movement and a click away from the floodgates of entertainment and distraction. Yeah, that's, that's, I know you're right because I've watched all of these little routines in my life creep in, checking my email, certain websites I like to look at, the news, the...

Amani Roberts (01:08:40.696)

Yes, yes, it's dangerous.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, dangerous.

Brian Funk (01:09:03.711)

YouTube, let's see who published a new video I can learn something from. And the education part is brutal. It's such a false thing in that you think you're working towards something, but you're just hiding from it. Of course it's important to learn stuff, but it's so much more important to learn it by doing it.

Amani Roberts (01:09:18.924)

Yeah, I agree.

Amani Roberts (01:09:27.586)

Yes, action, doing. Action is the key.

Brian Funk (01:09:29.365)

Yeah. Cause that it's so passive. You're just watching someone, yeah, I like what they did. And I could do that one day. Hmm. you know, I would love to do that actually sometime. just that's like kind of a, there's so many great albums that have been made that way too. you see stories of artists going away and just dropping off. It's also,

Amani Roberts (01:09:37.912)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:09:51.17)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:59.466)

Maybe in some way too it could be a little bit of a...

Like you don't need to do that, right? You can also discipline yourself. Like you said, you don't have to fly across the country, but maybe on occasion, it's not a bad idea. I forget what an author, I don't know if it was Toni Morrison or somebody who would go in a hotel room and just, is it Maya Angelou?

Amani Roberts (01:10:15.896)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:10:27.826)

Maya Angelou. She would go to a hotel room. She would take a bottle of sherry, a Bible, and sit there and write. And a hotel room, yes. Nothing to do but a bottle of sherry, a Bible, and just write. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:37.855)

In a hotel room, like, nothing to do, yeah. Not exciting.

Brian Funk (01:10:46.441)

Hmm. Yeah. That's pretty cool. You just sort of force yourself. And I'm sure you probably face some demons in there, right? Was it ever hard to just... Was it hard to get into that routine? Hard to stick to that routine?

Amani Roberts (01:10:56.792)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:11:05.28)

Yeah, well, by the time I knew I was struggling, so that's why I really made the effort to go on the writing retreat because prior to that I was struggling. It was hard to into the routine, too many distractions, starting, stopping.

Brian Funk (01:11:16.363)

Did you say a week? Is that what you said? It was a week long?

Amani Roberts (01:11:18.73)

Yeah, like five days, four nights. It was like five days, four nights of just writing. Before that, it was really, really difficult to get in the routine. I was struggling, so I had to do something. Yes, that was my answer to that issue, that challenge.

Brian Funk (01:11:32.556)

Hmm. See, I face this a lot when we as teachers go on summer vacation and it's like, I got all this time. I'm going to do everything. And you wind up just kind of wasting a lot because you feel like you have too much. and I think maybe five days is a little bit more nice, tighter timeframe, you know, cause you can't, you can't say like next week or tomorrow is.

Amani Roberts (01:11:38.978)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:11:46.232)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:11:55.18)

Yeah. Bye.

No, no, It was go time. Then I came back. I still had about 15 % left to do, but I was able to get that done because I was so encouraged by the progress I made that I was able to come back and finish and turn the first draft in. Then you get first edits and all things, but that was the first domino. Once you turn the first draft in, majority of writing is basically done. You might have to make edits, but that was really, really important to get me to the next step.

If I had not taken that trip, I don't know, I don't think the book would have been out last year. It might still have been a while.

Brian Funk (01:12:35.433)

Yeah, we gave yourself a really big victory and that can, yeah, those get you going. Like when you start to feel it and see it coming together. It's similar. It's the other side of the coin of when you stop and you start taking time off and it feels impossible to get back to it.

Amani Roberts (01:12:38.784)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:12:43.992)

Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:12:55.916)

Yeah, because you know in teacher world we look up and it's already August, time to go back to school. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:00.991)

Yeah, it is. And you're like, damn, I was going to make three albums this summer. All I did was like eat popcorn and watch TV. Hmm. That's cool stuff. I got to imagine it's a pretty cool experience to be one of your students, to be in your workshops and get some consultation from you because you have a real

Amani Roberts (01:13:05.108)

Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:13:26.466)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:30.611)

welcoming, friendly, encouraging disposition to you that really comes, it comes through an online, but especially in speaking with you. You make it feel like it's not impossible because sometimes it does. Sometimes it's like, does anyone do anything? know? So where can we tell people to go? Where do you like to send them so that they can start finding some of your work, getting into some of the coaching maybe or.

Amani Roberts (01:13:35.096)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:13:38.574)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:13:44.12)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (01:13:54.893)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:13:59.64)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:59.713)

Even the books.

Amani Roberts (01:14:02.136)

Yeah, for coaching, you go to my website, AmaniExperience.com backslash call. You can send me a note and we can get on a free call and talk about it. My website has all the information, AmaniExperience.com. You can also go backslash coaching. That's where you can see the coaching program. I share my videos about book and facts and stuff on Instagram and a little bit on TikTok. I'm really probably the most active on LinkedIn.

I like to direct people to the website and then you can pick where you want to go from there. You can set up a call. We can get on the phone and talk. I can learn more about you. You can learn more about me. There's a tab for the book there. You can also get the book Amazon, wherever, The Quiet Storm by me. Those are the places where I live and hang out. Join my email list, all the things.

Brian Funk (01:14:54.1)

Yeah. And, you know, I'm on site now and I can see you've got all those links easy to find in the top. You're practicing what you preach. didn't say, find me on Instagram, because Instagram could change. Instagram could disappear, get bought out or suddenly fall out of favor. And now all your followers are gone and you lost touch. So you did send them to your site, which is cool.

Amani Roberts (01:14:59.618)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. I'm trying, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Amani Roberts (01:15:14.166)

Yes. Yes.

Brian Funk (01:15:18.112)

Yeah, it's nicely laid out, so it is pretty easy to find everything there. And I noticed you got the quiz too, so that's sort of a little bit of a hook. I didn't take it. I just, I didn't see it the first time I was here, so.

Amani Roberts (01:15:25.836)

Yes, did you take it? Yes, take the-

Yeah, I know. know. Take the quiz. Let me know what army group you are. It'll be like a personality personality. That's a fun thing. I use that during my book launch to grow my email list. So that was my lead magnet. If I'm being honest, I should have promoted it more because it's very popular. People love it when they take it. I still use it. And that's one example I show my artists like this is how I grew my email list. You could do this. You can do.

Brian Funk (01:15:34.858)

Yeah, what R &B group you are. Yeah, that's fun.

Brian Funk (01:15:41.812)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:15:57.422)

I love giving away acoustic songs, acoustic versions of songs or unreleased music that's very popular. So I try to practice what I preach as you said, absolutely. And always refining and trying to make it better.

Brian Funk (01:16:05.3)

Hmm. Yeah. That's evident.

Right. Yeah. You don't ever get there, right? You're always on the journey. We're always that, that making it concept is kind of wrong, I think, you know? So yeah, it's great stuff. I love the world you've created here and really nice to talk to you. And maybe we'll have to touch base again sometime.

Amani Roberts (01:16:12.654)

Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:16:19.63)

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:16:27.63)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:16:32.842)

Absolutely. I'm a big fan of yours. I follow all your videos and things for a long time I know that kind of they make changes with like patreon and Dropbox where you weren't able to do what you were to do before but I've been following your content for a long time. So thank you to you as well Yeah

Brian Funk (01:16:47.309)

Thanks. Well cool. So go to AmaniExperience.com. Thank you everyone for listening.

Amani Roberts (01:16:54.702)

Thanks for having me.