Michael J. Morgan is a business coach that works specifically with mixing and mastering engineers. He helps them build frameworks and processes to maximize their businesses, reach more clients, and service them better through his company the Business of Mixing.
Michael and I spoke about patterns he sees in his clients. We get into things mixing engineers can do to develop trust and reputation in the music industry, while creating a fulfilling and sustainable career.
Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube
Links:
The Business of Mixing - https://mixing.biz
What I Told 21 Mix Engineers at Mix With the Masters - https://mixing.biz/blog/mix-with-the-masters-workshop-business-lessons
Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com
Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc
5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book
Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit
Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast
Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store
This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/
Thank you for listening.
Episode Transcript:
Brian Funk (00:42.316)
So what's up, Mike? Welcome to the show. Good to have you here.
Michael J. Morgan (00:56.681)
Thanks for having me, man. Excited to get into things.
Brian Funk (01:02.722)
Yeah, I think it's cool what you're doing. the business of mixing where you're taking people that are I guess you're assuming they already know their skills, they already know what they're doing, but how to actually turn this into a business, this is like something I think we miss along the way because a lot of people are getting into it little by little and maybe it starts off with some favors and some interning and the actual building of the process of charging, of setting up
sessions and all that kinda gets skipped over and we find ourselves I know I've found myself just when I get asked to do work kinda like, I don't know what to s what the charge would say and probably costing a lot of people a lot of money. So it's nice you're helping out in that department.
Michael J. Morgan (01:52.296)
Thanks, man. Yeah, I mean, that was why I started this. You know, I I realized that this was like not a one off thing. I think actually everyone feels in a way that they're like an exception to the rule of like, I really wish I knew that, like I don't know that, I don't know what to do. And it's like so far from an exception to the rule. It is like like the industry itself is the exception to the rule of business, where it's like, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to price, I don't know how to network.
I I don't know how to connect with people, get repeat clients, et cetera. And you know, I realized this is something really important. I love art, I love creating, I love educating and helping people, and I was like, I don't want to see so many business owners failing, going out of business, getting a full-time job, leaving the pursuit of what they're so excited about and in love with.
because of some simple foundations. And I say simple, not easy but to learn or quick, but they're essentially like they're not like infinite things.
Yeah, so I mean like I this is something I saw repeating over and over again and was basically like I want to address this, I want to help people build strong businesses, build repeatable businesses, and build reliable businesses. And through that, over close to a decade now, I put together a framework that walks people through step by step on how to build a business in audio that is reliable, that is more consistent.
Brian Funk (03:35.435)
Michael J. Morgan (04:04.683)
And I work one on one with people and walk them through that and coach them through it and teach them through it and really whatever it is that they need to get to the place that they want.
Brian Funk (04:19.65)
Hmm. And you're very specific about I'm not here to teach you mixing, I'm not here to teach you EQing. This is I think a great way for a lot of people to pursue their music careers and a lot of careers probably too, but to be very specific about that. I'm not gonna try to do everything. I'm I'm offering this particular skill set.
Michael J. Morgan (04:42.916)
Yeah, I mean, and that's relevant on so many levels. Like I advise people, hey, don't do everything. I just had a client call today where, you know, he's doing a lot of things, running a studio, and I was like, hey, let's focus. Let's focus on what we're offering, even, you know, and and so being specific is a lesson and a biography here, but it's like being specific on what you offer allows you to be better at it. It allows the message that
Brian Funk (04:59.822)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (05:12.205)
People are receiving about your business to be clearer, right? If I did everything, they're like, well, what's he really good at? I don't know. He does this, he did that for me, but he did this for this other person. It starts to be a little more ambiguous. And it also just adds a ton of additional work where it's like, I have to develop new processes, new things to promote, the more I offer. It adds a lot of extra weight. so I've been very specific on it. I also
think that being good at mixing and running a great mixed business are completely separate things. Like they they don't have as much of an overlap as people think. I don't want to say they don't have any overlap. They might have a 5% overlap and people think they have a 95% overlap. or maybe even a hundred percent overlap. And I think for me, it overlaps in the delivery phase when you're like delivering work.
But otherwise, it actually has a lot to do with a lot of different other things that aren't mixing. So for me to teach someone something that really only adds five percent of value, let's say, and knowing that if they're not really that good at it, it's not really gonna help to build a business around it anyway yet. And most people are very self aware. They'll say, like, I'm really not ready to work with you yet, like I'm still figuring out how to actually mix and get my room right. And I respect that, you know.
You don't like I'm not like here, you know, putting lipstick on a pig being like, Okay, like look, it's great, you know, 'cause we work together. It it truly is. Like you have to have foundational skills and then we grow from
Brian Funk (06:55.928)
Hm. Yeah, there's
Michael J. Morgan (06:56.188)
one interesting thing though that I did find sorry. One interesting thing I did find from this is that yeah, when we work on business processes and improving business processes, I've consistent s consistently found people come back to me and say, I got so much better at mixing from going through this process, even though we never talked about it. And
Brian Funk (07:02.648)
Nope, go with your interesting thing, yeah.
Michael J. Morgan (07:25.226)
One, I think people consider mixing a variety of parts of the mix process, but like their overall mixed process improved because they started thinking about and considering their customers in their process in general. And so the time that they might have spent, like up front asking clients what they needed, what they were interested in, or maybe they didn't spend that time, later would save time in the mix 'cause they had a better understanding of who they were working with. Or
you know, time that they had spent just understanding how to streamline email and communication workflows, they've then said, wait, I could probably do that in my mix workflow. And so, you know, system design and improving a system is is, you know, universal. It it's not, you know, discipline specific. And so it's been really cool to see that happen for people.
Brian Funk (08:18.222)
What kind of things are you looking at for this sort of preparation that would make the mixing faster? You mentioned considering your clients and their needs.
Michael J. Morgan (08:28.052)
Yeah, I mean, it's funny, like I said, it's something that the mixing side of it I spend the least time on, and yet one thing I'm always big on is saying, let's look at the entire process. I'm a big process person, I've always been. I've been project manager before and I've seen and led multiple projects concurrently, like twenty plus work streams at once. So you have to know every single step of the way that's something
gets originated to completed now in the world. And a lot of people they get into mixing, they know, all right, I got a song sent to me and now I start mixing it and then I send it off. And they describe their process in three steps. And really like I've broken it down in variety of different slices from anywhere to like 25 steps to 60 steps, depending on like how granular you want to be.
And as we know, like the more granular you get, some it there's a law of diminishing returns where if you're too granular, it's like you get lost in it. But if you zoom and if you zoom out too far and you're too general, you're like not really able to affect the system. But if you have a good purview into the system that you operate within, the mix process, you could say, all right, let's say there's 24 steps. Well now the first thing you could say is, well, how's everything going in these steps?
Are these successfully are people moving through these things successfully? And if not why, and if not where, and then how do we want to solve that? You know, what do we think would be useful to address that issue in in step two of twenty-five? and if sometimes if there's a problem in step twenty-five, it's usually the result of something in step twenty-four or twenty-three or twenty-two or twenty-one.
So to me, I have my my customers audit their existing process. look at past projects, how those worked, what worked well, what didn't. I prefer things that didn't work well. Saying it worked well isn't always that helpful unless they did something remarkably different. And then be honest with themselves. Don't jump to start changing things right away, but be honest with
Michael J. Morgan (10:42.747)
Where are their holes? And it could be in twenty five places. And that's okay. When I started my business year one and I looked at my process that I barely even had, all of them had problems. All of them had opportunities to make better. And if you commit and commit for a decade to your business and say over time all these things will go away and it'll get better and better, it will.
Be clear and specific about where, then decide what and prioritize where to address those changes, what needs to be done. Is it technological thing? Is it an information thing? Is it something else? Put that in place and see how it works. And then try something new if if you need to try something new.
Brian Funk (11:35.893)
There's a lot of learning from the experience of actually doing it, going through the process.
Michael J. Morgan (11:40.748)
yeah. yeah. And you know, you can't be a business without learning. If if you're not learning, if you're not setting up your business to be a center to learn things, then you're definitely not gonna learn anything. So you need to literally like set the business up or what you're doing, what you're trying is like, okay, what do I wanna learn from this by doing this, even if it's changing a price? Like, do I wanna learn if I can go higher for a year?
Brian Funk (11:47.405)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (12:10.723)
You know, like do I want to know if a lower price gets more people in? Like, do you know, like the decision you made, is it rooted in I'm doing this because I want to learn about something? And this way you can learn. And then you get that answer and you could fold it back in the business. And to me, what makes a super defensible business is one that is constantly bringing in new learning because they're always learning, they're always growing. And I can promise you from the customers I know, I've spoken to thousands of people now.
Learning isn't really the priority, like kind of survival mode is the priority and and just doing things is the priority. But when you make learning the priority, it's like a double benefit. Even if you fail, you still learn something or you the potential to. And so there's like never kind of like just a failure. It's like, something went wrong, but that's awesome because now I know not to do this or that or say this or that or
add this step or not or something like that.
Brian Funk (13:15.319)
That's an approach I've taken a lot to music making itself is try stuff and even if it fails I can learn from it. So I might l give a shot with maybe a different way of micing or different way of recording things or different song structures. And it's only a failure if I get actually nothing out of it. But usually
If even the experiment doesn't work, it's like, Okay, well that's not gonna be good for this situation, but there might be another time it works or it might just rule it out and now the next time I approach it, I've got a new place to start from, a more informed place.
Michael J. Morgan (13:54.763)
Yeah. I remember hearing a years ago that like and I don't know if the I don't know if this is true or not. but I know that oftentimes cats when they're young, cats will play often and try things, like to to learn how to use their bodies. it's a way of learning and so like it looks like failure. They fall off something or they like hit something.
Brian Funk (13:56.973)
No parallels.
Brian Funk (14:15.542)
Hmm.
Michael J. Morgan (14:20.47)
But really they're like learning how to use themselves as a tool, you know, and like I think it's the same thing here. You know, you're experimenting with a technique or a process or a price or marketing or something because you are trying to figure out what the bounds are. What what am I capable of even? Is it a perfectly good experiment? Like, am I an experiment could be like, yeah, I realized like I wasn't consistent enough with content or something. That's
A great observation to have if you're willing to be honest with yourself, you know. doesn't mean that therefore I should not make content because I'm not consistent. How you answer that question is gonna like lead to what you do with those learnings. Maybe you say, I haven't been consistent. Well, why not? well, I found that maybe or maybe the next question is well, did I do it the wrong time of day? Did I do the wrong content strategy?
Was I only looking for likes and because I didn't get them in the first day I gave up? Like, what's my motivation? There's so many things you can learn, but you you do have to spend time. And even when I was working in like the corporate world, I would always in our project roadmaps add a slot for the team learning. Like we don't know when that's gonna happen, but there has to be a stretch of time where like learning is accounted for.
And change might have to happen. And at the very least, the team gets together and says, here's what we learned from this. or what and learning doesn't mean like definitive. It means like this is what we think we know right now. You know, there's been plenty of times where I thought I knew something and I tried it maybe a different way, and then learned that, okay, my initial assumption was wrong, even though I was like so sure of it.
Trying to think of an example and I'm struggling right now. But you get the point of like you go in like so definitive of your ideas, and then you learn maybe someone shows you, actually, it wasn't that that was the problem. It was how you started it that was the problem, and that's what you know, and you're blaming it on content or something, you know. I could say content's the problem, but end up turns out I didn't upload it properly. You know, I uploaded a low resolution video, let's say, and then I say, Well, content's the problem, and then you tell me.
Brian Funk (16:35.286)
Right.
Michael J. Morgan (16:38.962)
Well, actually, you know, if you upload it at 4K, Instagram like values that more. And so, and then I go, cool. So wait, content isn't the problem, you know, and that's important to be open as a business owner. You know, it's why like my assistant who I hired, like that was the main reason I did, because of his openness and willingness to learn something new. Really, really important. Because to me, that's everything to a business, you know, like.
How could we know everything? How could we know how to run these things? How could we know how to do all these difficult things? We don't. We're going to learn that over time. So rather than be ashamed of not knowing and ashamed of having just learned something, be excited about having just learned something and excited to learn new things. this is a great topic. I've never really talked about learning. I've been an educator and it shows right now, but
It's so important to me and important to business growth.
Brian Funk (17:43.893)
Yeah, and a lot of that learning does come from things not working out and evaluating it's a big thing I do with my teaching is i it's a shame that the word failing is so negative and we were taught that from the very beginning with school, like, you failed and that's it and shame on you kind of thing. But those can be some of the best opportunities to learn things
over and over again, things I've failed at taught me more than the things that have succeeded. I could see how some of this applies if you're thinking of like what you said earlier, where it's not always the skill that correlates with like who gets the work, who gets the job, who succeeds, but it's also just the process of it going how's that part working? Cause I could imagine that
I bet a lot of great mixers don't get work just because maybe the communication is a little clunky in the beginning. There's might be an email that gets sent or something that could have been solved, all the questions could have been answered in one shot, but now it's a two or three back and forths and you know, things just every time you have to do a back and forth, the chances of something working out drops dramatically.
Michael J. Morgan (19:06.821)
Absolutely. I think in every single stage so I have nine stages of the business of mixing like framework and at every one of those stages there is a litany of ways that people fail their business. I wouldn't even say their business fails them, it's people fail their business, the business system that they should be creating. And so, you know, from not tracking things properly, you fail your business in a variety of ways.
From not having a defined offering with a consistent price or consistent price is you fail, from not having a clear positioning who you're marketing towards who you're speaking to, from not being willing to be seen you fail your business, from not being willing to have conversations and follow up, from not being willing to learn sales or like lean into sales or you know, to to to not
delay a sale from closing. We fail our business through process, like we mentioned earlier. We fail our business when we don't look to retain the customers that we already have. And we fail our business by not thinking about the projects that we've completed and putting those out into the world and like continuing to be a part of the teams that we've been a part of. And so in every single one of those areas,
in more ways than I just mentioned, but like we fail our business system so many times. And you know, you mentioned, you know, failure, and we're using that word a lot. And you know, there's like the positive psychology of things, you know, is there another word for it? I do like the phrase which I heard from I think it was like Mr. Wonderful on Shark Tank. I I think he said you win or you learn. And those being the two options
Brian Funk (21:00.023)
Hmm. Hmm.
Michael J. Morgan (21:01.662)
And I was like, that's awesome. And I also think when you win, sometimes you do learn. sometimes it's not that exciting. You know, a lot of times people say, dude, that's so cool. You talked at this or you did that or you did that, and I'm like, that's a win. And my learning was like, Yeah, like it was hard. You know, it was hard to get there. Like there you know, hard work is important. It's usually the the the learnings you get from winning. It's like all of that work that no one saw that was very hard was what got you there.
the lose part and the learning part, yeah, that that pain, that rub, like we do remember pain for sure. And sometimes it's like, I learned what I want to avoid or my own flaws or whatever. but you know, I'm always surprised by my my clients when we do a lot of work around observing the language they use and the things they tell themselves.
how much those things lead to failure as well.
Brian Funk (22:06.7)
Hm. What what kind of things do you see in the language coming from mixers and engineers and things like that that are maybe working against them?
Michael J. Morgan (22:18.507)
I think at the core it is just a disbelief in themselves. You know, like I think it doesn't need to get more complex than that, though it does. Like it gets more nuanced than that. It doesn't get more complex than that actually, which is like not believing in yourself. It sounds simple, it gets thrown out all the time, believe in yourself. But believing in yourself is actually quite hard. I think that's important to say. I I don't think believing in yourself is just like God given or, you know
everyone has it or they don't. I think you can learn to believe in yourself. There's the word learn again. you could also like come from a family that taught you already. So you already learned it when you were younger, how to believe in yourself. And maybe a family that modeled or or community that modeled believing in yourself. But it is not like a guaranteed thing and it's definitely not an easy thing to believe in yourself. Like it's a hard world, you know, like everything that's going on in this world is
chaotic and corrupted and all over the place. And it's very easy to get sucked into that and then even further believe or di even further disbelieve in yourself. And then you add comment sections, which I've already this week had plenty of people who had things to say about me to me. You know what I mean? And there's that. And there's, you know, reviews if you're an artist or whatever. And it's
There's so many places to find ways of losing the belief in yourself or just never developing it. And so I think that when we speak to ourselves, we often don't even know we're speaking to ourselves. We kind of it's like this weird thing. It's something you have to really slow down to see. That's why I like doing it with people, because like I'm outside of you able to see, wait, you just said something. Hold on. Like
You caveated wanting to win a Grammy with but I would never, you know, like that that you we might say something fast, we might we might use one negative word in a sentence and it's often easy to skip, but when you really look at what we're saying, it's like, yeah, I know I'll never win a Grammy, but it's like why did what? Like if well now, yeah, you're probably right.
Brian Funk (24:43.021)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (24:46.108)
You know what I mean? Like that kind of and I don't want to even make it about Grammys 'cause it's really not at all. But we say things like that. And that is our disbelief coming to the surface. And not only coming to the surface, but being reinforced with what we say to people about ourselves. And then they reflect that back at us, you know? And so I don't think it's I I know for sure it's not one specific thing people say. It's I have a list of like two hundred things I've heard people say.
Around their career and their business systems and why it's not them, you know, why they're not the person that's gonna win. they're the person that will lose and not learn, just lose, you know. And I think if I asked anyone that outright if they felt that way, you'd have a large percent that wouldn't want to admit it. But in that percent, a lot of them that know that they do it, and then scarier.
people that don't even know they're doing it, and are doing it, you know. And sometimes we we contain multitudes, right? And so I feel like I've fallen into both camps o about this at at the same time even, you know, where there's things I didn't know I was saying bad about myself, there's things that I did. and I see that all the time.
Brian Funk (26:08.895)
Yeah. I I can definitely feel that in myself that sometimes I'm I feel confident and other times I I don't and it's sometim like you said almost at the same time. I'm pretty interested in the sort of subtle programming though. That kind of stuff where kind of what you said, like these little things that get said that we're almost not even really thinking about. We're just it's just
like a code running beneath the surface that's limiting us or preventing us. that that's the hard stuff to recognize in yourself. And I guess that's where some outside perspective can be helpful.
Michael J. Morgan (26:40.06)
Totally.
Michael J. Morgan (26:51.138)
Absolutely. And and something I encourage with that is when so like I will keep track of it as I'm talking with someone that I'm coaching, not like right now, but like someone I'm coaching. And I will document and document all these negative things they've said about themselves within the first like two times we ever meet. And it's plenty. Like it is plentiful. and then I'll often deliver it back to them. So here's
Here's your shit, you know, like here it all here it is. look through it, sort sort through it, you know. and what I advise is to take the loudest ones, the most the ones that they're most familiar with that they've said so often that they even recognize, yeah, I know that one. That's a familiar old friend, and rewrite it. And once they rewrite it, we distill it even more.
They bring it back to me. We distill that language even more. And then we have them put post-its on their monitor with that rewritten narrative. So every single day, no matter where they are, no matter what they're doing, it's in front of them and they're they're witnessing it and they're experiencing it. and and even if they're subconsciously looking at it, they're being they're like accountable to the new narrative, especially when
You're alone, as most of us are, you know, you're in a room, you had a rough day, week, month, even, and you sit at the computer and you're all the negative narratives are starting to stir up, some trigger happened or whatever, and you have this note in front of you that you wrote in a more positive moment to be like, right. This is also true. That you know, because that's the reality. They're both true. Like, you know, I had a friend.
She was visiting from out of town. She was telling me why her business wasn't gonna work. And I was starting to get a little frustrated because I'm like, the whole time you've been here, you've been complaining about how your business can't work. And so finally I was just like, you know what? I agree. I was like, I think you're right. She's like, right about what? I was like, I don't think your business is gonna work. And then she's like, well, what do you mean? And I was like, I don't think it's gonna work because you keep telling me it's not gonna work. Like, so don't see.
Michael J. Morgan (29:18.507)
Like I'm not hearing how you're going to make it work. What opportunities exist in front of us? The more we say, This is not good, this isn't gonna work, I'm not good, I'm not gonna work. Like, of course that's gonna happen because our brain can only do so much. So it focuses in on what we tell it, you know, and what other people tell it. And look, this is deep stuff because this is
Probably things that we've either heard from people on the outside growing up or in, you know, in high school or whatever, and it's things that we've maybe learned to say to ourselves to adapt. But either way, these are like these are hard coded stories we tell ourselves. And it can take a minute to get out, to shake out.
Brian Funk (30:09.377)
Hmm. Yeah, subtle ways we self sabotage with that talk. I I do believe that our mind kind of listens to what we say and all these things. And when you repeat that story over and over again, it can really be self sabotage and and self fulfilling as well. I think maybe like
Michael J. Morgan (30:17.66)
yeah.
Michael J. Morgan (30:36.977)
It's yeah.
Brian Funk (30:38.867)
in this world too, th there's a lot of artists in it, you know, that are expressing themselves and it's already something we're a little vulnerable about. and it's also something that we sort of think is a it's not business, it's art, right? But we have to get to that. And I have to imagine that's a
That's a big I mean, I've seen it I've said it myself, like, you know, I the music should speak for itself and you know, we just shouldn't have to go into all this kind of promotion and all the you know all that side of the stuff that absolutely needs to happen if there's gonna be a career built out of it. I wonder maybe how you might see that manifest and some things you might general, I guess, 'cause I know
it probably helps a lot to have a specific person go through their specific situation, but I won there's like common things you see repeatedly.
Michael J. Morgan (31:37.512)
Yeah, no.
Michael J. Morgan (31:44.02)
Absolutely. I think at the r it's such a brilliant point that you just hit on, by the way, because it's something that I came upon like last summer. I was on the phone with my buddy Dave and we were just like just like there was like a moment where I was like, wait a minute, I kind of see a new problem has emerged, you know, from all this observation of people, which is like my theory is we got into music because we didn't want to get into business.
or science or something that was like too technical, like that was too not creative. And so we got into it usually from like a performance angle. When you get into perfor from it from the performance angle, you're getting into the arts. You're getting into the entertainer. Then we tried that. A lot of people tried that. And I'm talking to mixers and producers specifically. This is the common path I see. They tried that. They might have even gone on tour, might have even been in a big band.
They're over it. They don't want that life. They've decided I want something more serious, but I want to be in the arts. So then they start developing a career in audio engineering or in production. But what they don't realize is like narratives don't just like disappear. Like adopting a full identity means adopting new narratives and changing belief systems and a lot of complex stuff. However, a lot of times
They take the narrative of yesteryear of being in a band, being in a high school, you know, rock band touring the country, and they carry that into the next role they have. Now, sometimes that could be amazing. Maybe they went from that to being like a tech executive and and was so disruptive and unique and whatever because of that background. Sure.
At the same time, it's not always and that's like that's so cut and dry. Like it's it wouldn't happen like that, where it's only good things. Like you're only bringing the upside. You know, so it's the same here. They come, they they become a business owner without knowing it, they become an audio engineer that isn't the artist anymore, and they don't realize they're not the artist anymore sometimes. And so what happens is they now have like a business that they're running with beliefs from a different identity that they're carrying into it.
Michael J. Morgan (34:00.762)
So it's like I'm the artist running a mixed business instead of I'm a business owner running a mixed business. And so that shift in identity is major. What typically happens is they will first go to, I'm a mixer, period. Not running a mixed business, I'm just a mixer. The identity shift after that typically is I'm a mixer and I have a mixed business. Why am I not getting work?
The third shift in identity that I make people make is I'm a business owner who runs a mixed business. And sometimes in that business I mix, and other times I do other shit, you know? So that is a big identity transformation thing that needs to happen. And it has nothing to do with the being the artist back then, you know? And so I think when we carry the mental models, the the belief systems, the identity of a different thing, or even
we just don't adopt the identity of the job we currently have, yeah, it becomes dangerous. It becomes problematic. And we often don't see that as the problem.
Brian Funk (35:11.873)
Hm. Yeah, 'cause I think we often start
You know, you gotta kinda work your way into it, right? You gotta get some work sometimes to get work. And we might start off doing favors, doing cheap work. and it it that's always a difficult thing for people to confront. Like, how do I ask for the compensation? Because that feels like the part of this that I never was. I never was like
business man kind of person. I was the artist.
Michael J. Morgan (35:53.656)
Yeah, absolutely. And and that's
Brian Funk (35:55.299)
So this is more like a shift in identity, you're saying, yeah.
Michael J. Morgan (35:59.214)
Absolutely. I mean, even the way you just said it, like I am, right? Like that is identity. And so those are typically some words that I'll look for is when people describe themselves as I am this. I'm not this. I don't want to be this kind of person. I wanna be that. This kind of person. I don't want to be this identity. I am this identity. I am not this idea. Saying that is so so important to identify. You know, like we can we hold multitudes, like I said.
Brian Funk (36:07.118)
Mm-hmm.
Michael J. Morgan (36:29.195)
It doesn't mean we have a fixed identity. In fact, we have a wide array of identity that we can choose from and belong to or subscribe in or or or assign ourselves. but it's the rigidity of what that identity means and sometimes it's the misuse of it. Like maybe you don't need to be a business owner when you're with your partner. You know, like you don't those identities don't need to be the same.
They can change. And the same way, like you don't have to be an artist. Yeah, yeah, shut it down, you know? Or or or let it just be lower, you know, like an EQ. Like just let that part be a little more quiet when you're at the movie, you know, like on a date. You don't need to be business owner in that moment. and vice versa. you don't need to be in people pleasing, loving
Brian Funk (36:59.926)
Hmm. Turn it off once in a while.
Michael J. Morgan (37:27.564)
you know, dating mode when you're at work and everything in between that. You know, it's just like th these are different identities. And no one would question that dramatic of a shift. But it's it's the more nuanced ones in the moment of like, what identity do I believe as someone participating in the music industry? That's where it can get complicated.
Brian Funk (37:32.334)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Funk (37:55.469)
Yeah, and that that's a great example. I mean, you have to be able to shift between a lot of those things and different aspects of your life. And I I like the EQ metaphor. Probably a lot of your clients can relate to that where we this 'cause it is something with mixing. It's all relative and you know, you don't always want to just cut all those frequencies or just keep boosted the whole time. You need to work with them.
Michael J. Morgan (38:04.596)
Yeah.
Brian Funk (38:24.118)
You you mentioned this idea like about trust with the people artists wanna work with. It's not necessarily that I'm gonna go look at different mixers and compare everybody and shop around to see
who I'm gonna work with, but more about trust and I guess wondering what you think about that and how people can earn that trust and what what ways they can signal that and create it with their clients.
Michael J. Morgan (39:01.139)
Yeah, so another great question. You're doing you're doing a great job, I just wanna say. this is a really great conversation. you know, I'm really enjoying this because you know I think this is an important topic. I think, you know, when I think about trust in a business, there are three kinds I like to call out. There is the social trust, emotional trust, and technical trust. And so
Brian Funk (39:07.234)
Well, thank you very much. I I do appreciate that.
Michael J. Morgan (39:29.091)
I'm gonna start with social because I think that one's so powerful. Social trust is like, you know, a listener of your show who has no idea who I am at all. Might is wa there is at least one person that is watching this right now, hearing us speak, and may never have been interested in anything about me, or maybe even was like saw that I existed, but they were like,
I don't really care, right? Now I'm on your show. Let's say they are your number one subscriber and they had that experience with me. Right now they might say, you know what? I want to give this guy a chance, right? Because the social connection is so important. So so important. Is a big way that we trust people. Is do the people that I care about, that I believe in, that have I've earned trust because trust takes such a long time. We're always
learning to trust by proxy of something else. it's not because I said, hey, trust me, right? Even you and I, right? Like I could do anything and have done anything since this conversation started that would have either increased trust or decreased trust. You know, like you could be at this stage in the conversation nervous about what I'm gonna say next or relaxed because you are like you know that I will say something that is
For the program and not against the program. You know what mean? And so we're constantly in a trust building world. But the same way, like if you introduce me to a friend, that friend is gonna be more at ease, even though they might be nervous, might be hesitant, than if I were to just walk up to that person. You know? Let's say this was a work thing, right? You were like, hey, you have to work with Michael. That's very different than being like, Hey, you have to work with me, you know? So
Social plays a big, big role in this. And who we're affiliated with, the artists we've worked with in the past, the artists and peers that we're affiliated with in the present, all of those matter. And a oftentimes we we finish a project and we kind of move on, but but that is really important to highlight here's who I've helped. and it doesn't need to necessarily be the biggest names. It just needs to be
Brian Funk (41:25.166)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (41:53.838)
Names, truly. You know, so many times people look, a lot of times people will go to my page and say, you know, I saw that you worked with big name XYZ and I want to work with you. Social trust. Other times people say, I go, How'd you find me? Well, I saw that you worked with my friend XYZ, and that's why I hired you. And they're not big name mixers. It's not necessarily like how famous someone is, as much as like we are just
Brian Funk (42:16.781)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (42:21.055)
animals in the wild and we literally are all distributed from where we all grew up and everything and we're trying to connect with other people. And so we're using signals as a proxy of judging whether or not we could trust someone. So social is a big one. You know it's the same way we made friends in high school, the same way we got into scenes in the music industry and etc. Like people to people to people. The technical trust
which maybe actually speaks more to the example I said about how I'm speaking on the show. If technically from the beginning of this, I started saying things that indicated that I don't really know what I'm talking about at all. Like I don't have any example, I don't have any framework, it doesn't seem like I could ever help you. Technically, you're like, I don't know if they technically can do it. and that obviously is going to play into trust because
Why would you trust someone that you don't think could actually, you know, live up to what they say? And then lastly, is a nuanced one that I think is almost a result of the other two, but then also just instinctual and also has other factors, but it's the emotional trust. Like, how does that person make me feel in general? You know, there's some people that are like I'll be introduced to that are like really good at what they do, but I just cannot hang out with them. Like I just am not interested.
There's no connection, there's no like energy that connects us. And we are emotional beings and we do have instinct that that reads that sort of thing. And especially if you're an artist and you're probably higher on the emotional spectrum than others, to be around someone who emotionally doesn't ground you or doesn't reflect the maybe chaotic emotion that you're bringing in, that's gonna play a big role in whether or not I trust you. You know what I mean?
If I'm someone that's like, and I am pretty direct, as you know, we're both from New York. So there's a directness to it, there's a pace to it. If that energy just doesn't gel with you, that in and of itself is enough where someone goes, Yeah, I mean, I know he's good and like, you know, he worked with these great people, right? So good, technical, worked with these people, social, but emotionally, I just don't there's something about people will say, you know, or something like that. And so
Brian Funk (44:19.811)
Mm.
Brian Funk (44:26.582)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (44:49.398)
I think social, technical, emotional, I think if they're all lined up, that's where, you know, you'll see really promising results. I don't think it's like either or necessarily. Like sometimes it's like they're really good at this. I don't like them. And, you know, they haven't worked with anyone that I like know, but like I've heard their work and I like it. Okay, that's good, you know. Budgets depend, like budgets are gonna affect that, who you know is gonna affect that. So they're variable.
But I'd say those three are like kind of the the areas to look at and to highlight and to bring forth in content and website and all
Brian Funk (45:28.59)
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. it's it sucks when you like somebody's work but you are uncomfortable reaching out to them or asking for more something, the revision or advice or whatever it might be. that's like we don't have that emotional thing, like, Yeah, I don't wanna bother him or he's gonna get pissed or whatever it might be. I guess if you don't
trust that they can actually do the job. That's like a technical thing. But I think the social thing is a great point too. before we hit record, we sort of had that moment. You asked me, and we should shout out Trash Talk Audio for their really cool telephone microphones. You asked me if that was one of them and turns out you've worked with them. You've done what you said you designed their website and logo. And right away there, I've had a great experience just with the company. I I
picked up that they were probably local to me, although I've never met them, I I love the product and I I just think it's cool stuff they're doing. So that kind of built something right right off the bat, just between us, even as we were first talking to each other. these little cues are definitely important. They're 'cause when you're new with somebody, you are really grasping at anything you can find to determine whether or not there's gonna be that trust with that person.
Michael J. Morgan (46:58.335)
It's such a great point. And it's like obviously this is like a topic where like the most sociopathic person is like, mm, interesting. Like how do I how do I how do I manipulate the situation or like make friends or that like win friends and influence people book or whatever? There's like like anything, a spectrum where it's like, wow, that's like you can almost tell when someone like knows the rules too well and then they're just like, I don't think this person likes me, but they definitely want something from me and the way they're acting like shows that.
There's that end of it. You know, and so it is a fine line because I don't even know if it's a fine line. I think partially it's just brain chemistry and stuff like that that sends and trauma that sends people into that path of like I need people to like me and I'll do anything it takes. But I think like we are gr like humans want to connect. Our brain itself, the synapses connect. Like our brain is made via connection.
We as humans are made via connection. Our relationships, our opportunities, our lives are made through connection. And I find that it is helpful to help disarm people. You don't want like the best, as you know, producing records is like and I've produced records as well. It's like and I've been produced. The disarming of yourself when you enter the room.
To make a record will determine like whether that is an incredible experience making an album or a terrible one. all because of how you feel when you show up to the studio. You know, every strum on a guitar, when you're like not feeling comfortable, you feel it. I remember like being so intimidated, one of the first recording sessions I had, and like I just could not play on time, even though I've like a drummer since I was a little kid, like I just couldn't do it.
Because I was just so nervous and didn't feel like there was trust to like make mistakes or anything like that. Like I might be judged by this person or whatever. So the emotional aspect wasn't there. The technical was there and the social was definitely there with this person. But the emotional, I was like, I don't know if they're gonna like judge me. Do you think they're better than me? Do you think they're worse than me? We were kind of like high school like, you know, buds, but like we were in competing bands, and I was like, I don't know if he's like judging me or not. You know, so that matters. Like it
Michael J. Morgan (49:18.649)
It really matters. And so I think like to be able to connect, I think I always recommend, you know, with producers or mixers, if you do have the ability and the time to meet people face to face or even video if you guys are in other places, like really make it a point to connect emotionally and align emotionally and socially and technically. Like, you know, I say like you don't need to make it all about this.
But know that like it's not that you're telling people what they want to hear and you're lying. If you're doing that, then don't do it. But if you're telling people what they need to hear, it's not even what they want to hear. It's like, I need to hear this, otherwise I'll continue to feel less comfortable around you. Well then give them a warm blanket if it's cold. You know what I mean? It's just like give them information that's like, hey, like, that's cool. I see you. You have this microphone. Like I know the guy.
Like we're we're all connected. you're from Long Island, so am I. Awesome. Like, that's amazing. That that helped so much. You know, like going from we don't know each other to now, like, we still don't know each other, but it doesn't feel like we don't know each other. And that's so much different. and that will then lead to great conversations like this, where it's like, now we can be in a flow state. Whereas like
There's been times where I've been interviewed and I'm like, I don't really feel that close emotionally and like I don't know where this is gonna go, like I don't know your motives. Well, how do you show up? It's like those are not the interviews I'm most proud of. And so it it it happens no matter what we're trying to do. if we don't feel that connection in any relationship of any kind, it's going to have an effect downstream somewhere, whether that's resentment or a bad product or whatever it is.
Brian Funk (50:51.119)
Mm.
Brian Funk (51:08.687)
And it's I think it's important both ways, right? Like you might be thinking, I'm addressing people that are trying to gain clients, but you probably don't want every client at the same time either. Like there's some people, some that just might not be a fit. I mean, you you make this clear on your site. You're like, I'm not gonna tell you, I'm not teaching you how to mix. I'm not teaching that's not what I'm here for.
So you could probably scoop up a few extra clients if that's what they thought they were getting and that was, you know, if but then there goes the trust, you know, after that where now the word gets out. yeah, he said he could teach me how to mix, but you know, it's not really what he does and that that's out the window too. So there's definitely I guess like an honesty that's important.
about what's on offer, what we can do, how we can ha help each other. I you got me thinking a little bit about Rick Rubin's style too, where he's not he's telling you like I don't you know, kind of famously says like I don't know how to work the board. I don't know how to do a lot of this stuff. 'cause that's not what he's offering you. He's not coming for that reason. He's there more for that emotional trust
Michael J. Morgan (52:05.452)
Yeah.
Brian Funk (52:34.371)
So that you can do what you need to do. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Michael J. Morgan (52:34.954)
And obviously social, I mean, his discography will prove, you know, the best of the best will leave with a great output.
Brian Funk (52:45.571)
Yeah. I I guess that kind of if you're so good at the social and emotional, I guess, you know, the technical maybe there's like some sort of balance, I guess.
Where you you your your strengths are in here and here. Maybe maybe not with trust, I guess, necessarily, but 'cause I think the trust is there in that I don't have this to offer you. Right. I'm not gonna be technical for you. But
Michael J. Morgan (53:16.042)
Yeah. I think like I think it's as long as it's like not zero, you know what I mean? It's just like 'cause ultimately like to record you, I just need to hit record on something. So it's like, you know, can they deliver the thing is such an emotional question as much as it is a technical many times. So I think for what we do, for artists, like I said, that are probably more on the emotional
sensitivity spectrum, they will trust more or maybe put more weight into emotional trust than technical or social. but I do see social being a big one for artists and I do see emotional for sure. I think technical is one that a lot of engineers when they're like making content or something are like talking so technical and it's like that's the last thing they're really interested in.
not that they're not they do want to know you know how to mix, but like to prove that doesn't take much. You don't have to talk about compression ever and they will trust that.
Brian Funk (54:27.216)
Hmm. Yeah, it is a funny thing 'cause there is so much technical stuff, but even having a really solid knowledge of all the technical things that go into making music, it's still not enough. I mean, you can know all this stuff and not be able to finish a song. Just you can't get there. There's so many other aspects to it.
Not just the knowledge.
Michael J. Morgan (54:56.808)
Yeah, absolutely. you know, I mean there's there's limits to everything, there's kind of trade-offs to to everything. I none of the advice I'm giving, here's my disclaimer. It's like none of the advice I'm giving is like one and done. You know, I w here's another thing. I mean, like you were talking about like offering mixing advice. People the other day I had to turn someone down, he's like, I saw your website or saw that you designed Engineer XYZ's website.
And yeah, I'm thinking about doing that. I'll hit you up in the future. And I was like, hey, I don't make websites. Like that was a very specific thing for a very specific reason. Like that's not why you come to me. you know, it I wouldn't say it's a trust thing, actually. I think it's a new topic here, which is like having boundaries around the work, the shape of the work that you offer, you know. I will make websites for people when I think that it will have an outsized advantage to what they're trying to do and how they're trying to position themselves.
I do not make websites for everyone and it's not guaranteed in the programs that I offer. when people come to me looking for a website, I always turn them down because I know right off the bat that their motivations are actually off. That the aesthetic, the presentation, the vanity infrastructure, I like to call it, is motivating them more than revenue based infrastructure.
Than actually building a business. They want to look like they have a business. Like that's why I call it vanity infrastructure. It's like they want to look like they're legit. And they say, I saw a legit guy X's website that you made. If you make my website, that means I look legit. And I go, We're not the same kind of person. Like that's not how I operate. And I'm very happy and was very happy to let them know immediately it's not what I do. because I know that and I ha and again, you win or you learn.
I've taken on clients who did that, who approached me because of that. I was able to convince them to go through my program. But the entire time that I was pushing left, they were pulling right because they just wanted the website. They just wanted to get that website to make themselves look legit. And where are their businesses now? The same place they were when they started. And it's a bad look for me.
Michael J. Morgan (57:19.565)
I don't want to put my name on a website. I've asked for my name to be removed on some websites. I don't want my name associated with people that don't value what I value. Because it is so important socially to build trust with people that if my name is plastered all over websites of people that other people haven't built respect for because they played the same games with them, what does it say about me? You know what I mean? So
Brian Funk (57:46.703)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (57:48.504)
I am very, very careful and protective of that. and yeah, literally last night it happened. I was just like, Nope. You know, like that's not happening.
Brian Funk (58:00.386)
Yeah, I can relate to that on some levels where getting offered work that's not really what I do, but I kind of have done it in other formats and then th that's always the type of stuff that stresses me out the most. That I I put off or I I just I really don't wanna do and I after being going through that a few times, it's very helpful to know
what you want to be doing, what you wanna work for, instead of just saying yes to any opportunity that comes along your way. That's that's not what w you're probably trying to do. And when it's I think especially in the early stages when there aren't many opportunities, it's very tempting to jump on anything that kind of bites the line. But to continue this
Michael J. Morgan (58:41.931)
Up absolutely.
Brian Funk (58:58.776)
new fishing metaphor, like you gotta be in the right pond with your with your bait, I guess. I don't know.
Michael J. Morgan (59:04.427)
Yeah, definitely, definitely. you know, I think like when you're new, you're learning where mistakes happen, where like what failure even looks like. You know, if you're very new, you're like really learning what failure looks like. if you've learned that lesson three times and you haven't changed anything about it and you're still saying yes to it, you know, I say my whole
take on it is I don't want to have resentment for clients that I take on that are paying me. To the point, no joke, that there was a guy that paid me. I looked him up. I found out that he actually was like running a coaching business in addition to mixing. And I emailed him and I said, Hey, I'm sending you your money back. I don't want to do this. Like I don't want to give you my proprietary information that you're going to take and flip. Like it does not feel very ethical for you to do that to begin with.
But also like if you're saying that you're pursuing this and you're pursuing that, like you're already splitting your time, it's not really clear. But also I'm like, I just don't really feel great about that. I'm gonna send your money back. because I've learned that. I've seen because I've done the opposite, where I've met with people and I check their Instagram stories and they're literally just like rewriting things I say and have said and have posted and putting it on their s their stories, you know, like the day after, the week and it's like
Look, you know, it's open content in the world, right? But like I don't want to encourage that behavior. I don't want I don't want to take on clients that I'm gonna end up resenting. You know, if someone's just biting my style, like whatever, that's it is what it is. But like I don't want to bring clients into the den and then I am holding resentment when it's like, Well, I had a choice. I could say I'm good, or I could be desperate and take the money and look.
The money's always great, for sure. That's nice. But the money's not always the same. Like the cost of me taking on a client, especially for eight weeks, is a lot. And if that's someone that like I'm not going to enjoy being around on a deep level, not just like a little bratty level, but a deep level, then it's like I really do need to evaluate it and let people know. Hey, I you know, just letting you know, like this is how we're gonna go. If that doesn't seem like a fit, I just want you to know that.
Michael J. Morgan (01:01:29.109)
You know, giving them the door many times and then sometimes like literally showing them the door. it doesn't happen often, but it is important to know that you can fire clients. Sometimes you really should. Sometimes it might be a little too late to, but you still should and give some money back. but like it's an option. It is an option. They they don't only need to fire you. And you know, a lot of people say, Well, what if they say something? And it's like, what if? you know?
But I think like at the same time to just cater to everyone that just wants to take and shape your business into the shape they want, there's a bigger risk to that, truly. And so that's what I'm always cautious about.
Brian Funk (01:02:15.982)
Yeah, the cost is greater than whatever you might be earning. And I I guess you're really talking about a sustainable career too. That's an important thing to keep in mind that and I it probably ties in even with just pricing and figuring out how much to charge people. because you it needs to be sustainable, right? Like you can't put yourself through either work that
you're not getting some fulfillment out of or enjoyment out of, but also work of extreme hours and too many clients that you can't keep up with it or do it for the long run. I I know you kinda get into some of that. Do you have do you have any like other angles on that, like the sustainability? 'Cause
This, as as we've been saying over and over, like there's so much ups and downs, so the failure, the learning, the growing, the wins here and there. just to stay in the game, to to last through it, to become you know, have this be a long term thing that you can keep doing.
Michael J. Morgan (01:03:20.252)
Yeah.
Michael J. Morgan (01:03:28.359)
I have a lot of thoughts on that. I I think the biggest one is that the way you get to the end of the game, which is the end of our lives really, or until you decide to stop doing music at all, or in any capacity, the way you get through that depends and varies based on who you are and what you want to do. And I think really importantly is that.
You know, some people will come to me because they desperately want to do this full time, but like they actually don't. Some people come to me because they like want to, they're doing it part-time and they have a full-time job. And all combinations. They have a full-time job, they have a part-time job, they're doing this part-time with other audio work or whatever it may be, right? And I think what's really important to remind people is like it's okay, whatever you decide.
Like however you decide to keep this going is okay. You don't have there isn't a specific model in which you're like, okay, I need to do this full time every single day of the week for this to be the right thing. Or I need to have a part-time job and then this needs to be part-time. Or I can only work in audio. I want to be a freelancer full time, but I can only work freelance in audio for this to be the right thing. And what I've seen time and time again and continue to see is that
There isn't a right path. And that path is always going to keep changing as the economy changes, opportunities change. So to be fixated on like a like configuration instead of like actually putting in the work to build something that would actually tell you how to be configured over time, you're gonna get yourself into like kind of like a expectations over your head kind of loop that isn't gonna be very
in enjoying or fulfilling. And I think, you know, when we think about rates, it trickles down because rates, like let's say I've spoken to so many people that have full time jobs that come to me. They actually I've spoken to a few that have full time jobs and like a pretty healthy work stream of mixes. They might have eight or ten a month and they're full time and they're getting paid really well full time. Like, yeah, I really just want to be doing mixing full time. And I'm like
Michael J. Morgan (01:05:52.344)
Okay, let me tell you the trade-off that you're about to make if you actually believe that, and you're actually still kind of far away from being able to do that full time. Do you actually want to? You know, I'm just summarizing an hour-long, two-hour-long conversation. And a lot of times you're like, you know, I think what was valuable about this conversation was realizing I didn't. You know, I I don't want to do that. I thought I did. I maybe I wasn't even sure what I was deciding, you know. That's great. I've spoken to people that were like
I wanna do this full time. I used to do this thing, now I wanna like I have one person he used to have a really great job, full time, or kind of like a freelance full time thing. And then he got into audio and mixing, and then I told him, All right, look, this is what it's gonna take to really make this full time. and I showed him all that it would take. And he was like called me like a few weeks later and was like, I decided I want to go back to that old thing that I was doing. And I was like, awesome.
Like there isn't a right way. it's gonna be different for everyone. And I think like if the configuration actually works for your capacity, for what you need to spend every month, the requirements you have, if you're providing, that's awesome. That's great. You know, whether that and that can change over the years. You can be full time doing it, then you go to part time, then you go back to full time, then maybe you stop doing it completely. It all depends.
I don't think there's a right configuration unless you are like dead set that that is all you want to do and you're willing to do whatever it takes. Sure. But you're still gonna make big trade offs, you know what I mean? I'm not saying ever I don't wanna be like the person that's like, all right, wind it up, man. Like you didn't make it in two years, so now you to stop doing it. It's up to you, th is what I'm saying. You know, there are various configurations and with those configurations trickle down a strategy of pricing.
of marketing of all the other things. So once you decide how you want your life to be arranged, what you're willing to trade off for that, then the strategy comes in. You know, I have a client who th his living situation allows him to only need like twenty thousand dollars a year. So I was like, look man, if you can get two productions for ten grand, you're set. You know what I mean? Like awesome. If that happens in one month, then you're set for the entire year. Like that's great for you. You know?
Michael J. Morgan (01:08:19.59)
If you know and and at the same time, like you only need 20 grand, we do the math. I can't do it in my head. But like how many songs is that per year at $100 a song? You know what I mean? Or $200 a song. So you can be more competitive on rates is another option. So it it gives you different kinds of leverage each path you choose. you know, like I said, everything has a trade-off. So I think the pricing conversation why it's so tricky.
Brian Funk (01:08:40.624)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (01:08:46.471)
is because it's so dependent on so many other factors that we don't take the time to slow down and look at. and some of those factors are like what do you want to do with your life and other factors are like what does the market say and other factors are what did you charge before and other factors are who is your market in general. Like it's a multivariant or it's a multivariant problem to solve, but it's not a like infinitely complex problem to solve.
Brian Funk (01:09:17.136)
Mm.
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, you gotta factor in the costs, the things you wanna sacrifice and sometimes that can be really eye opening. I mean, I learned that for myself with like being a thought I wanted to be in a band touring until I started trying it out for did like these little two week things and
it was a lot of fun, but I realized a lot about myself going through that, what that actually meant. Like if that's something we're gonna do. How serious you gotta get and how much you're gonna give up and all those trade offs. And yeah, I it was valuable to experience it and go through it. I I'm sure there could have if I was if I was smarter about it, really like
kind of figured it out beforehand, but going through the experience of it and like kind of seeing what it meant, like, all right, we went away for two weeks and we we have no money. Like we we gotta figure something out. Like that's it's just not sustainable. It's and also I'm just completely worn out and I like being at home. These are important things to learn that I guess you don't consider when you're
you're imagining it sometime. You don't think about you're probably gonna sleep on the floor a lot or you're gonna you know, you're gonna be indoors eight to ten, twelve hours a day listening to music and maybe possibly even like music that you don't really feel that invested in. You know,
Michael J. Morgan (01:11:07.099)
Yeah, I think we we over idealize like any role. and I think what's so interesting sometimes is that like you say like, you know, I tell people when they ask what I do, like I go, I work in the music industry 'cause I really don't love talking about what I do when people ask. Just in general, I don't think that's like the most fun conversation. and, you know, it's like I do work in the music industry, but that is so broad. It's not like
Brian Funk (01:11:12.667)
Yeah. Sure.
Michael J. Morgan (01:11:35.814)
Because I work in the music industry doesn't mean my life is like a rock star every day. You know what I'm saying? So it's like people like kind of mix like the same way we might mix like a title with, you know, the title of mixer to mean like all these things that we loaded up with meaning. It's like working in the music industry doesn't just mean you're like playing, you know, a festival every day just because you're in the industry. You know, like there's so many variables.
and so many different jobs that you could be performing in the industry. And I love the idea that I'm doing a job that services that industry in some way. but I never mistake it for another job within that industry. You know, whether that is the job of the performer or it's the job of the mastering engineer or the job of the artist manager.
Brian Funk (01:12:30.926)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (01:12:33.563)
There's so many different roles. They're all in the music industry. But yeah, what it where it's located hierarchically via industries and what you're doing day to day are not the same thing. You know, and so you know, you have to pick a job that I just did this work with a client today where, you know, I said there's there's form and there's function. The form of something is like the title mixer or producer, but the functions are
what that person does daily. what does the producer do? What are all the things a mixer does? And the functions are really like the thing you're signing up for. If you're only signing up for the title of mixer because another famous person that you admire is a mixer and you look up to them, then like once you get on the path of becoming a mixer, you'll realize that the path isn't I'm famous too now. The path is
You have to do all the boring shit and all the functions you might not like to say that you are that form. And a lot of people like they're just they think the form is this idealized, like award winning everyday, everything is perfect person. When I have the privilege of knowing so many different engineers at varying levels, that it's like, well, that's not entirely true. They're just as much human as anyone else. They've just committed to the form.
And performing all of those functions consistently and at a really great high level. A lot of people aren't willing to even perform those functions consistently, or even perform all of those functions, because in their mind they're like, No, I'm in the music industry. I should just be like it should just be fun all the time, you know, like and then they'll start slacking and like going out for lunch and just chilling. And it's not it's not that. You know, it's a it's a lot more complex.
Brian Funk (01:14:30.127)
Yep. That's very true and I guess w we think it's all that glamorous, you know, side of it. And it's not always the case. It's often a lot of why is this snare drum mic buzzing the afternoons and kinda you know, the unglamorous stuff that
Yeah, like you said, it's not all like lunches with after the Grammys or something.
Michael J. Morgan (01:15:00.905)
R right, exactly. And I I think, you know, we want to believe that. And honestly, those things are like so few and far between. You know, I I spoke at Mixed with the Masters and like people were like, my god, that's so cool, like whatever. And it's like that was a small, small moment, a very small moment in like a very complex year. challenging year, difficult year at times, great year of time, you know, like
It was just a moment. And then after that moment, you move on. It's a cool moment. It's a very cool moment. It's great to tell people on my website. It's great to have a picture at the studio. But it is not a defining moment for me the person. It's a defining moment to the business. but it is not a defining moment to me the person. You know, I'm still me. I still have to
Brian Funk (01:15:34.705)
Cool moment.
Michael J. Morgan (01:15:59.274)
I have to get up the next day. You know, I have to, you know, I I don't all of a sudden do that. And then all of a sudden all my Ubers are paid for forever. And you know, my dinners are forever paid for. And like, you know, like, it's not always that. Sometimes you get something that like gives you a nice handful of cash, and you're like, that's awesome. But like, you know, you still gotta keep going. And I think oftentimes, like,
Brian Funk (01:16:03.024)
Mm.
Michael J. Morgan (01:16:26.409)
the same way that's like I just wanna be like a mixer because this person is and they're cool. It's like I j then I just wanna get a Grammy because that's all I need. And it's like, yeah, that's gonna be a moment. Even if you get it, it'll just be a moment. And everything before it will be a race to getting to this moment. But then what happens after? You know what I mean? Who are you after? And who were you during? And before, that's really wh how people will describe you. They're not gonna describe you like
He is the biggest piece of shit. but he but he spoke a mix with the masters, so he's great. You know, like that that's not how people talk about people. And so like you have to consistently be or even getting better as a person while things happen along the way. And hopefully they do for everyone. That's awesome. It's cool stuff. I was proud of myself. I knew
what it took to get there, all of that stuff is important. But it didn't define me as a person. it defined an accomplishment of the business practices that led to that moment. That really was what it showed. Like there were things I did as a business, as a business owner that allowed that to happen, not things I did as a person. You know, that didn't are
Do those overlap sometimes? Yes, but like they are separate separate things, you know?
Brian Funk (01:17:58.363)
Hmm. So I guess a lot of what you do is reality checking. You're you're making the peop the picture clear for people, helping them see what what they're getting into and where they're going and and then help them figure out how to get there.
Michael J. Morgan (01:18:03.814)
Lot of reality checking.
Michael J. Morgan (01:18:17.01)
Day in and day out.
Brian Funk (01:18:20.546)
That's cool. Well, we should tell people to check out mixing.biz B I Z. Mixing dot biz where they can find all your stuff. You got a lot of content on here too, like free stuff, some cool like blog posts and s and things. also some other great interviews too. that's definitely worth checking out. But I think if yeah, probably a lot of people out there are trying to figure out this
business of mixing and probably coming from a an area where, you know, you're not getting that kind of education so much. So it's nice that you're specializing in that. I think it's really cool that you're looking at that specifically for artists and engineers that are looking for this. So it's very cool stuff. And it it sounds like you you give it to everybody real too, which I appreciate.
Michael J. Morgan (01:19:16.046)
A as a New Yorker, I don't think there's any other way. but I I appreciate that. And yeah, look, I I d want the absolute best for everyone I come in contact with. And I think that like a healthy reality check is what got me on any good path that I've ever been on and continue to be on. And it's from peers or friends or coaches that I've signed up for, you know, and it's really important to sometimes be told
Brian Funk (01:19:19.726)
Yeah.
Michael J. Morgan (01:19:46.104)
things about yourself that you know you haven't looked at. You know what I mean? Like, even we, there's so much we know we aren't looking at. and I just want to help as many people as possible. Really, like truly, like I'm dedicated to this big lofty goal of just like I want to affect every single audio engineer that exists. because why not, right? If every single audio engineer who exists comes in contact with like,
a piece of content or an interview or a quote or a a person that I helped coach, like that would be so incredible to have made an impact on the industry in that way. and more importantly in many ways, impacting each individual's family and relationships. because
That's ultimately what this is all about. You know, we we love our relationship to art, but what about the other relationships that we have? And and being able to help people where they bring that home and I've seen this time and time again, where they bring it home and it just affects their household, their kids and their wife and their you know, their families in general. So, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to to yap for an hour or plus and as I told you we would we would it would take a second.
and yeah, like you mentioned the the resources page on my site has interviews with like famous engineers, like dozens of blog posts I've written, every podcast I've ever done. and yeah, I mean it's a great resource to get started and kinda learn a bit more about how I think.
Brian Funk (01:21:30.436)
That's awesome, man. I love the genuine motivation behind it too. It would be nice if we could, you know, wish everybody really even outside of this, just kinda wish everybody the best. I think if everybody is thriving, it only, you know, affects us all in positive ways. So it's a good thing you're doing. And yeah, thanks for taking the time. Good to talk to you. All right.
Michael J. Morgan (01:21:56.749)
Thank you. Have a great day. See ya.