Sarah Belle Reid - Learning Sound and Synthesis - Music Production Podcast #408

Sarah Belle Reid is a trumpet player, composer, educator, and sonic explorer whose work combines classical performance, experimental electronics, and modular synthesis. With a background in conservatory training and a fearless embrace of improvisation and technology, Sarah’s music blurs boundaries—merging extended trumpet techniques, custom-built software, and handcrafted synth patches into deeply expressive, often otherworldly performances.

It's great to have Sarah back on the Music Production Podcast! We talk about music as a practice, the joys of unpredictability in modular synthesis, and how constraints lead to creativity. We explore her educational approach and the value of creative curiosity. Sarah reminds us that music-making should be fun and playful!

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Sarah's Upcoming Workshops and Courses:

Sign up for Sarah's FREE Live Workshops: How to Finally Start Making Music with Synths (Without Feeling Overwhelmed or Getting Lost in Gear) - https://www.soundandsynthesis.com/a/2148058115/2H9xLyBG

Sarah is about to open enrollment for her very limited and highly-praised Learning Sound and Synthesis Course. Sign up for the priority notification list to get early access and exclusive early-bird bonuses! Learn more here: https://www.soundandsynthesis.com/a/2148028332/2H9xLyBG

Takeaways:

• Modular as Playground – She uses modular synths not to replicate traditional instruments, but to build interactive environments for sonic exploration.

• Start with Curiosity – Whether teaching or performing, Sarah emphasizes the power of asking “What happens if…?” rather than chasing specific outcomes.

• Constraints Create Freedom – Limiting one’s tools or techniques can paradoxically unlock deeper creativity and more personal expression.

• Improvisation as Listening – Sarah sees improvisation not as random playing, but as a form of deep listening—responding to yourself, your tools, and your environment in real time.

• Bridging Tradition and Tech – With a conservatory background and a DIY ethos, Sarah integrates academic rigor with playful experimentation.

• Teaching the Inner Artist – Her courses focus on helping students reconnect with joy, experimentation, and the “why” of making music—not just the “how.”

• Sound as Emotional Language – Sarah uses synthesis to explore emotion and identity, encouraging others to find their own voice through abstract sound.

• Every Patch is a Performance – Even small synth patches hold potential for deep expression. You don’t need complexity to create something meaningful.

Links:

• Sarah's Official Site - https://www.sarahbellereid.com/

• Learning Sound and Synthesis Course - https://www.soundandsynthesis.com/a/2148028332/2H9xLyBG

• Live Workshop - How to Finally Start Making Music with Synths (Without Feeling Overwhelmed or Getting Lost in Gear) - https://www.soundandsynthesis.com/a/2148058115/2H9xLyBG

• How to Design Your First Modular Synth Patch Free Course - https://www.soundandsynthesis.com/a/2148028330/2H9xLyBG

• Sarah's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sarahbellereid/

• Sarah's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@sarahbellereid

• Sarah and Andrew Huang "No Listening" Collaboration - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWPg2Sb1Zas

• Support Sarah on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/sarahbellereid

• Sarah on Music Production Podcast #334 - https://brianfunk.com/blog/sarah-belle-reid

• Eventide MixerLink - https://amzn.to/4fGgLvv

• Onward Chase Bliss - https://www.chasebliss.com/onward

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.346)

Welcome back, Sarah.

Sarah Belle Reid (00:02.97)

Thank you, I'm happy to be back.

Brian Funk (00:06.072)

Yeah, so you're in Australia right now for the folks listening, watching, and that's exciting because you're in tomorrow, I'm in tonight, or yesterday to you, and things are still okay in the future. Good.

Sarah Belle Reid (00:09.081)

Yes.

Sarah Belle Reid (00:15.79)

Yeah. Right. I'm in the future. Things are okay. It's been wild to try to wrap my head around the time difference. Like getting on the internet at the right time for this call. It's confusing, but yeah, I'm making it work.

Brian Funk (00:32.706)

Mm.

Brian Funk (00:36.972)

Nice. Anything fun going on in and ask you what you were doing there? I don't think it's crocodile wrestling.

Sarah Belle Reid (00:42.06)

Yeah, am. There's a bunch of fun things. The main reason why I'm here is because I'm performing at the Melbourne International Film Festival with a really wonderful artist named Julia Holter, who I've worked with a bunch before. I've played on a couple of her records. And what we're doing for this visit is we're playing her score for the film Passion of Joan of Arc.

which was made, it's a beautiful black and white film that was made in, I think, 1928. And by Carl Dreher is the filmmaker's name. And yeah, it's just a beautiful score. She's written this piece for...

voice and percussion and synth and I'm doing trumpet and electronics and there's a full choir as well. Like 15 to 20 person kind of operatic choir. So it's really epic and really, really fun. I played a couple other shows or I played one other show earlier this week here and then just spent yesterday at this really amazing.

Brian Funk (01:44.802)

Wow.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:55.994)

place that I'd love to shout out, which is called MESS. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's the Melbourne Electronic Sound Studio, I think is what the acronym stands for. And it's a nonprofit organization in Melbourne where they have, I think, hundreds and hundreds of new and vintage electronic instruments. And you can rent time. You can book a four-hour slot and say, I'd love to work on the

you know, the old surge modular synth or on this particular key vintage keyboard synth or whatever you have that you want to work on and they'll help you get it set up and you can just play it and record with it. It's amazing. It's amazing. I wish we had something like that in my backyard.

Brian Funk (02:37.537)

Wow.

Brian Funk (02:42.017)

Yeah, right? I've never been and really don't know a lot, but it does seem like so much cool stuff comes out of there. Very supportive of the arts and especially really embrace electronic music and forward thinking, next generation stuff.

Sarah Belle Reid (02:59.01)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a good, a very fun time so far.

Brian Funk (03:07.533)

Do you get much rehearsal for this performance? With the choir and all that?

Sarah Belle Reid (03:11.194)

Well, so we have two days of rehearsal coming up before we do the performances. But this is actually a piece that I originally performed with Julia and her band, I believe in 2021 or 2022. We did it in London. So we had a few days of rehearsal prior to that and then played a couple shows at the Barbican and at the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival.

So it's not my first time playing the music, which definitely helps.

Brian Funk (03:46.094)

I'd probably normally say for people that might not be familiar with your work, would you tell them what you're up to? What exactly you mean, trumpets and electronics? But I think even for people familiar with your work, you're so varied in what you do, so experimental that...

I don't think anyone that knows you will ever know what you're up to next and how you're doing this stuff. And I mean that as a compliment. Do you mind going into a little bit of what's going on trumpets and electronic wise?

Sarah Belle Reid (04:07.47)

You

Sarah Belle Reid (04:16.388)

I don't mind to, no, I'm happy to talk about it for this particular series of shows. Sure, I'm actually making a YouTube video about my setup and how I'm prepping for this particular show as well. So if anyone's kind of curious, that'll come out at some point in the future. I'm not exactly sure when. But, know, so in the past when I did this particular

Brian Funk (04:20.501)

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (04:44.018)

show with Julia, what I did was I my trumpet and then I was using my computer and I was using a program called MaxMSP, which is a programming software where you can, it's extremely flexible and it basically allows you to build any kind of custom audio tool that you can imagine from scratch. So you could build little synth engines, you could build sound processors, delays, glitching.

processor is kind of anything you can dream of. And so I was using that and I use that for a lot of my, when I say trumpet electronics, a lot of the time it's trumpet plus max MSP. But for this particular time around, I thought it would be a fun opportunity to actually learn some new gear that I've had around for a while that I haven't really been using. So I'm doing a new setup for me, which involves FX pedals.

which is something a lot of people start with effects pedals, but for some reason for me, like I came in the programming side and effects pedals are actually relatively new. So it's been really fun to get to know them. so I'm basically just using, just a couple of pedals. Like my setup's really small, but the Eventide H90, which is a really great multi-effects pedal. don't know if you're familiar with it, where you can kind of, it's got

tons of beautiful sounding delays and reverbs and you can run two different programs at once and you can kind of customize them to be really performable. So that's my main tool for this show. And I also recently, I don't know how much you want to actually have me talk about gear here. I'm not trying to like promote this gear for anyone, but it's just exciting because it's new in my life.

I recently got this pedal called the mixing link, which is also made by Eventide. And it's really cool because it allows you to just plug your microphone XLR cable straight into it. And it acts as a preamp and basically a signal mixer so that you can run your mic straight into pedals without needing any other equipment. And so for me, that's huge. Like I used to run it into my audio interface and...

Sarah Belle Reid (07:05.101)

my computer and then out from my DAW. then I like, it was just this huge process. and now I just use this one pedal and I'm a big fan. thanks. Thanks even tied for that. Yeah.

Brian Funk (07:17.783)

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, because normally it's like a quarter inch jack for like, yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (07:23.064)

Yeah, it's normally a kind of complicated thing, especially matching levels, right? Because mic signals are so low that getting like a good quality, good strength signal into an effects pedal to process it from a microphone is actually kind of tricky. So this pedal boosts the signal up and there's all kinds of other helpful but very boring utility things that I won't.

Brian Funk (07:27.948)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (07:48.718)

I won't get into, but they're there. You can read about it if you're curious. You can watch the video. Yeah. And then there's this one other pedal I'm using that's made by a company called Chase Bliss. They do a lot of really creative, kind of quirky effects pedals. And this one I'm using, if I remember correctly, it's called Onward. it basically, I picked it because I wanted something that could kind of be like a looper.

Brian Funk (07:50.573)

Yeah, we can watch the video.

Sarah Belle Reid (08:17.998)

but like a weird looper. So I didn't want, you know, I didn't want like a normal looper that gives you perfect four bar loops. I wanted something that would sort of distort the sound a little and maybe kind of do choppy glitchy loops and add a little bit of unpredictability into the sound as I was playing. And it does that really well. So that's my whole setup. So pedals, couple pedals and a trumpet.

Brian Funk (08:47.316)

That's cool. I guess people like me, guitar players, are used to those and we kind of get to them first and I've tried to run microphones through them and yeah, it comes out interesting and weird and but nice to have something that knows how to handle it properly like that.

Sarah Belle Reid (08:51.897)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (09:05.912)

Right. Yeah, it's funny. I always feel a little bit like I came into the world of electronic music from an unusual side, because I think a lot of folks get started either working in DAWs, like working in Ableton or Logic, or working with effects pedals. And I just didn't know about those things until I was already kind of doing a lot of stuff with programming and...

physical computing, kind of instrument design stuff. And then years in I was like, DAWs are great. I didn't know about these. So, just coming at it from a different angle.

Brian Funk (09:41.174)

Yeah, right.

It's a lot of, think, what gives your work its interesting, unique take, because you come from classically trained, that kind of background. I think it's really kind of only recently that even schools have sort of embraced that a bit. You mentioned Stony Brook you were just in recently, and when I was there as a student,

There was no sign of that. And as a guitar player in rock bands, it was so foreign to me to see orchestras and recitals and all that stuff. And there was no sign of anything I was familiar with. And now things have changed. But it's cool that you got into like the Mac stuff, because that's, think maybe a lot of people might know of like Macs for Live and...

Sarah Belle Reid (10:26.178)

Yeah. Yeah, it's starting to.

Sarah Belle Reid (10:35.704)

Yeah, totally.

Brian Funk (10:37.75)

that's the same world. I've never learned that stuff. That to me is, you know, that's for another day, I guess.

Sarah Belle Reid (10:39.908)

same thing.

Sarah Belle Reid (10:46.072)

Yeah, it's a big learning curve for sure. I mean, I will say if anyone's curious, it's really fun. It's really rewarding once you get into it because it really is endlessly flexible. But it's a big learning curve for sure. And one thing that I personally realize this might be helpful for someone who's listening. think, so I tried to learn Max MSP a long time ago, long before I was deep into the world of

modular synths and all of that. And I found it really difficult to wrap my head around all the different concepts and the signal flow. Like everything was just so foreign to me. And then I took a bunch of years working really deeply with modular synths and understanding that workflow. And then I went back to learning Max and it was a lot easier. A lot of the core concepts made a lot more sense.

a lot of the way that they kind of name things and the way that you have to connect things just was a lot more intuitive. So if I were, you know, suggesting to anyone a way of getting into that corner of the world, I would say start with modular synth focused learning. You don't need all of the tools. You can do it all virtual too on a computer. But I would say start there and then venture over into Macs. Personally, that's my two cents. Why are you laughing?

Brian Funk (12:08.364)

you

You're recommending a dangerous gateway. The modular synth board. I do. Yeah, no, you're right though. But it does make sense. mean, even like guitar players understanding signal flow by, what if I put my distortion after my reverb? And what if I mix that around? It has all come in really handy down the road in all of this stuff.

Sarah Belle Reid (12:12.314)

Well, you know I love modular synths, I can't. Yeah, you weren't, you weren't.

Sarah Belle Reid (12:28.792)

Exactly.

Sarah Belle Reid (12:33.944)

Yep, totally. Yeah, I guess effects pedals.

Brian Funk (12:36.908)

That's a fun recommendation though I haven't heard. If you want to get into that, start with modular synths.

Sarah Belle Reid (12:41.208)

Really?

I know most people, I guess, think modular maybe is like the end of the road of complexity or something, but it can be simpler, I think, than people realize. And the reason why I'm saying that, to be clear, it's not, you I think when people hear, get into modular synth, they immediately jump to like, go buy a wall full of expensive gear. And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm really talking about just the concepts, the modular synthesis concepts.

Brian Funk (13:07.596)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (13:13.978)

The reason why it's so helpful to begin with is because it's you're, it's kind of like you're looking under the hood of a car where you've got all your different components, all your sound generators, all your processors, all the different things. And you have to decide like, how do I want to put all these Lego building blocks together? As opposed to just getting the instrument that's pre-built, right? And so once you kind of can start to wrap your head around that, you have

all this flexibility in terms of designing your own sound and designing your own workflow, which is super, super fun. So that's really what I mean. It's not so much you have to get all the gear and you have to have all the physical modules. It's just about learning the concepts. for the record, you can do all of that with free software as well. So I'm a big fan of VCV Rack, which I know we've definitely talked a lot about in the past.

There's a bunch of other virtual softwares that people can check out. think another one is Cherry Audio. That's either free or very affordable. So there's some options to get started without mountains of gear.

Brian Funk (14:20.617)

Yeah, now I get what you mean, because it's like one thing at a time. Play with the tone generator, then okay, play with the envelope. Maybe you remember Korg came out with these, they were like marketed, think, like toys really. They were those little like square things and you would connect them with what?

Sarah Belle Reid (14:24.025)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (14:28.003)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (14:39.168)

the little like battery powered, what are they called?

Brian Funk (14:43.691)

It was like micro bits or something along those lines. And they helped me understand synthesis a lot when I was first learning because it was just this little, okay, this thing is just making a noise and then you plug it into the next thing and they might've even been like magnetic or something. Little bits, yeah, right. Yeah, those are really cool.

Sarah Belle Reid (14:47.416)

I have a couple.

Sarah Belle Reid (14:55.0)

Yep.

Sarah Belle Reid (14:59.202)

I think you're right. They're little bits, I think is what they're called.

Yeah, that's exactly the thing. It's like there's something about having all of these pieces and then figuring out how you want one to flow to the next to the next that it just reveals it like to me anyway, it reveals the, I don't know, the process in a really clear way. And of course it also has a learning curve. takes time. Everything takes time to learn, know, and patience, but

It can be a lot easier to start with those individual building blocks than to come to like a fully built synth that just feels like a bit of a mystery. We were like, why is this doing what it's doing? What's going on behind the panel? I have no clue how things are connected.

Brian Funk (15:44.149)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:50.41)

Yeah, it just gives you a taste of like one part at a time. Cause I can remember playing around with some synths when I, before I knew anything about them at all. And just turning every knob randomly, not understanding there was even a signal flow to begin with. that I'm playing with knobs, LFO and whatever that is. To me, it was like a boy band. It was.

Sarah Belle Reid (16:06.639)

Right.

Sarah Belle Reid (16:10.232)

Yeah. Yep.

Sarah Belle Reid (16:15.64)

LFO.

Brian Funk (16:18.695)

Do remember like the Abercrombie and Fitch or something like that? That song, whatever. yeah, it's probably... Yeah, they were like, yeah, I think they didn't quite hit that level, but they did have a hit. But getting it pieced apart, same thing with, I think, guitar pedals too.

Sarah Belle Reid (16:24.922)

Like there's NSYNC and there's LFO. That's the other band.

Sarah Belle Reid (16:43.194)

think it's super similar.

Brian Funk (16:45.259)

Yeah, because like you might get a vocal chain or like one of these plugins that's to everything you need for vocals and you're like, what is it? But if you think about, it's kind of like my guitar pedal. had a delay, had a chorus and little things at once.

Sarah Belle Reid (16:57.228)

Exactly. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Exactly.

Brian Funk (17:06.185)

I noticed, and something I wanted to bring up with you anyway, you say the word fun a lot when you're doing this stuff. And it seems to be a real important part of your whole process. And I was just kind of looking at your Instagram before we started and you're just playing with stuff. It seems to me like you let the fun kind of be the lead in a lot of what you do.

Sarah Belle Reid (17:34.456)

I do. Yeah.

Brian Funk (17:36.534)

Cause I'm assuming that maybe in the past, some of the other musical training you had was devoid of that aspect. Cause as I said, when I was in school, I wasn't taking music, but just dropping in on classes that would fulfill requirements. And sometimes we'd be

Sarah Belle Reid (17:44.954)

You can say that.

Brian Funk (17:57.492)

required to go to a recital and I was coming from the punk rock show where we were just going crazy and loud and laughing and then you're in the recital where it's so tense. where you're like scared sitting there even to make a noise and someone's really under the microscope. Do you, do you think it's a form of rebellion or is it just, was there a discovery moment for you where, I can have fun or.

Sarah Belle Reid (18:08.015)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (18:12.494)

Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (18:25.046)

Yeah, well, I think there were... totally. Yeah. You know, I think there were many, many moments for me. But I do, you know, I come from a background, my early musical training was classical conservatory style. So anyone who's listening, who's experienced that immediately knows the vibe. It's very, it was very strict. It was very competitive and it was very kind of all or nothing.

Brian Funk (18:26.611)

Some people like that pressure too though.

Sarah Belle Reid (18:54.778)

If you weren't playing, practicing your instrument for four to eight hours a day, you were falling behind. And it was all about precision and technique and accuracy and execution. And those were like the words that were central to my creative. I don't even know if I'd call it a creative practice, but like my trumpet practice for the first long time. And I, like many...

I think like many people experience this. When I was finishing my undergrad, which was in classical trumpet performance, I was having a major kind of existential crisis where I was just like, wow, I'm done with school. This is all I've ever done really is study and play this instrument. I don't know if I really like it that much anymore because I was...

struggling a lot with performance anxiety. Speaking of the tension you felt in the concert hall, it's not just in the audience. It's like you're getting up on stage and every time I would do that, I just felt like I was walking the plank, you know, where I was just like, this is a moment where if I make one mistake, everything is like earth shattering, you know? And so I put so much pressure on myself to perform at a high level.

And as a result, when you put that amount of pressure on yourself, you don't really perform at a high level. Some people do, like you said. Some people thrive under that kind of pressure. For me, though, I didn't really. So I was getting ready to maybe pack it all in and quit music altogether. And thankfully, instead of doing that, I ended up meeting a few wonderful people who just really approached music in a very different and very unusual way.

And that bit by bit, it's a very long story, but bit by bit, it led me toward the world of free improvisation. So making music up on the spot with no notes, no chart, no chords, no plan, just playing. And I was like terrified of that, but also really into it. I was like, this is amazing. And that led me in a very roundabout way into the world of electronic music.

Sarah Belle Reid (21:11.658)

And again, it's a long story with many twists and turns, but it was basically at each of these steps, I kind of had you ask like, was there a moment for me when I was like, this could be fun. I think at each of those steps, I had these little flicker moments where I was like, wait a second, this is awesome. Like I can, it can feel like this. I can have this much fun on stage. I'll never forget, there was one performance where it was basically my first time ever playing a

solo piece, was solo trumpet, but it also involved a little bit of improvisation and a little bit of performance art. So there was some theatrics. I had to speak and sing and move a little bit. And for the first time in my entire life, I was on stage and I paused and I looked at the audience and I had this moment where I kind of came out of the music and I was like, I'm having a really good time. This is awesome. And then I'm like, okay, wait, Sarah, focus, keep going.

And then from that day forward, I was like, want every performance to feel like that or better, you know, just because now I knew it was possible. So I started to seek out collaborations that felt lively and exciting. And I started to, you know, improvise more. And every time I saw something that just seemed or met someone that seemed like they might push me in a new direction, I was like, okay, this is great. Let's do this.

And now fun is basically like my, and joy, they're basically like my prime directives in making music, you know.

And one of my favorite questions to ask is how fun can this be? You know, as I'm walking into my studio in the day, I'm like, instead of, I gonna do something good today? Will I make a track anyone wants to hear? Blah, blah, like all the questions that usually go through our heads. I'm just trying to always ask like, how fun can I make this today? And that usually leads you somewhere pretty cool.

Brian Funk (22:54.974)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (23:12.478)

Yeah, I think so too. Growing up...

really like not having those experiences. There were some times where we'd play with musicians who were trained and in school and in the band and they were, you know, scoring high marks on the New York, it's called the NISMA, New York State, something or other. And, you know, like they were like sought after colleges were interested in them, but they'd come and play with us.

And they'd like, what should I do? we're I don't know, just we're playing A-D-E. And they'd be like, what do you mean? You're like top of the class. So it would take them a while to get out of that. Whereas we didn't have the training, but we had the kind of recklessness, I guess.

Sarah Belle Reid (24:05.274)

That's so good. I was like that. I was like the person who was coming in saying, what do I do for years? And I always tell, know, something that I, you know, I do a lot of teaching and something that I get asked a lot by my students, especially people who are beginners is, you know, do I need music theory? Do I need formal training in order to make electronic music, in order to learn how modular synths work? And a lot of people will actually delay

Brian Funk (24:12.148)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (24:34.488)

getting started sometimes for years until they feel like they have adequate formal training. And I just wish, I want everyone to hear what you just said, because there really is this gift that can come from not necessarily having all of that training and just using your ears and your heart and just playing, you know, and figuring it out as you go. It can be so liberating. Of course, there's nothing wrong with studying and learning the theory, but you don't.

I really don't think you need it in order to get started playing an instrument like a modular synth. Or any instrument for that matter. You can just play.

Brian Funk (25:14.366)

Yeah, of course it helps and it expands your possibilities and opens doors and things. But yeah, I see the same thing too. And I see it in myself even where I need to see another tutorial. I have to learn how this thing works before I use it or people often, am I ready to make something on this? I need to study, I need to learn the software more.

Sarah Belle Reid (25:16.462)

Of course.

Brian Funk (25:39.828)

But the certificate never comes in the mail. The permission slip never arrives. You just have to make it yourself and then just push forward. And there's really no better teacher than that to just...

Sarah Belle Reid (25:44.175)

Right.

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (25:51.802)

I think that's so, so true. Yeah, it's not that we don't want to be refining our skills and studying and learning. Of course we do. That's a big part of growing as musicians. But yeah, what you said, it's about, it's not waiting until a certain point to feel ready, right? Like you don't, you don't want to wait until, I need, I need.

X number of tutorials and then I'll be ready to start making music. It's like, no, no, no. You can start making music and start thinking and expressing yourself creatively, even if all you have is a pile of rocks and you, you know, that like, you can do that. It's a decision to make that you're just going to play with what you have. And then you can go and read the manual for that pile of rocks and learn about how they work and get deeper into it. But, you know, it's a lot like

waiting for confidence. This is something I talk a lot about with my students. A lot of the time people think, well, I need to have X and I need to have Y and then maybe then I'll be confident, right? And they're just kind of waiting to feel confident until, so that they're waiting to feel confident before they take action and start doing something like make music or anything. But what you, like you just said, we know where confidence actually comes from.

is taking action and doing things before you feel confident, right? And before you're ready. So fumbling your way through a session and playing some wrong notes, but like trying it anyway, over time, if you do that enough, you're gonna start to build that feeling of confidence, right? But if you just wait, you're gonna be waiting a long time.

Brian Funk (27:38.76)

Yeah, yeah you will and there's so many ways to question it and think you need this or that. I guess it just becomes a trust. You give yourself that I'll figure something out, you know, or I won't die from it. Something, you realize that the consequences aren't so terrible.

Sarah Belle Reid (27:56.217)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (28:05.976)

Right. It's a good reminder. We are making making music at the end of the day.

Brian Funk (28:11.335)

Yeah, I find myself coming back to like, it's called play music, it's not work music. Just play, have fun. So early on too, I feel lucky for this experience where when I was first learning guitar, I'd taken some lessons and my friend lived down the street, best friends. I showed him the power chord shape.

And I showed him the spot to put his hand so that I could practice like my pentatonic scale over it and all that. And then a day or two later, he came back and he was just moving it around and kind of came up with a pattern of movement he liked that when I saw, was like, well, that's not really in the key that I just learned at guitar lessons. But it sounds cool. And it was eye opening that.

Sarah Belle Reid (28:44.11)

Cool.

Sarah Belle Reid (28:52.111)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (29:02.937)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:06.301)

He doesn't know. He doesn't know he's not supposed to do that, right? And like, I barely just learned it. But it made me kind of understand that, you know, just do it, just try it. And sometimes, sometimes the more you learn too, the more you do question yourself. Because I think we start to see all of the things that we don't know. The more we know, the more we realize that we don't know.

Sarah Belle Reid (29:10.042)

Great.

Sarah Belle Reid (29:20.644)

Right.

Sarah Belle Reid (29:28.154)

Totally.

Sarah Belle Reid (29:32.15)

Absolutely. 100%. I agree with that fully. Yeah, so it's a, you know, something that I really try to do is, it's not easy, but to just have that kind of beginner's mindset every time I'm walking into my studio or sitting down with my instrument. Because you're right, the more that you learn, the more you realize how much there still is to learn and you start to see your flaws.

right, and hear your flaws. But that just shows how much you've learned. Like if you're hearing all your mistakes and your flaws at the end of every time you make a track and you're like, my God, I can't believe I produced that this way or wow, I could do so much better on that, you know, production element or whatever it is. That's actually something to celebrate because that shows how far you've come.

Brian Funk (30:02.889)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:21.117)

Right.

That motivates me to do the next thing. So, good, like, not good, but, you know, that was off, that didn't sound right. Now I want to do the next thing. It gets me a little more excited to move forward.

I think really harping on things and trying to mold it into perfection just gets me more frustrated and gets me thinking, what's wrong with this? What am I doing wrong? Where am I messing up? And that's just a way less exciting place to be than, you know, exploring new things and trying to find out ways to solve those issues.

Sarah Belle Reid (31:02.818)

Yeah. And you know, I know that people know this, but I think it's worth saying again, 99 % of people out there, they're not going to hear the same flaws that you hear in your music, right? So you can agonize over some element that you could have mixed better or that you played, I don't know, not quite the way you hoped you could have played it. And you could let that prevent you from releasing your music and sharing your music, or you could put it out anyway.

Brian Funk (31:08.873)

.

Sarah Belle Reid (31:31.246)

And that's the better option because putting it out anyway, it's going to land and resonate with people. It might, it might become someone's favorite song and they're not going to hear that flaw or they'll hear it and it'll be their favorite part. Like think about all the artists that you love whose slightly warbly, slightly crackly voice or whatever is something that is just iconic and makes them who they are. Right. And of course they could play with more technique or more clarity or whatever, but

you're kind of happy they don't because it becomes them.

Brian Funk (32:05.411)

None of my favorite singers would win American Idol. None of them.

Sarah Belle Reid (32:08.322)

Right. Yeah, same with trumpet players who I love. You know, they're all over the place, slipping and sliding out of tune. And sometimes they've got soft articulation. All these things that I was taught were wrong and bad technique, but they make their voice on the instrument so singular. You know, it just makes them sound like who they are. And that to me makes just makes it so much more special to listen to.

Brian Funk (32:37.641)

Yeah, and when you're making your own thing and this happens playing in bands, we, you know, we make mistakes and it would be like, no one's going to know. Whereas in the conservatory setting, like everyone knows except like the regular people listening that are just blown away with how nice it sounds. But

Sarah Belle Reid (32:56.654)

Right.

Brian Funk (32:58.853)

Sometimes when I play with my band, might do a part too long or skip it, or I mess up the first verse lyrics with the second verse lyrics. And it's like, nobody knows that that's not how our songs go. So, you just kind of, you just ride it out. And sometimes even when you make those mistakes, you find a better way. And it just...

Sarah Belle Reid (33:11.458)

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah Belle Reid (33:23.842)

Yeah. I'll never forget this one live performance I went to when I was a little kid. It was my first live performance of seeing kind of like a pop band play live. Sort of pop, I guess. Pop adjacent. And they deviated. God. I don't know if I can share that information. I'm going to let people guess. I'm going let people guess. was, it was, I was young.

Brian Funk (33:37.641)

Do you remember who it was? For fun? No. I admitted to remembering LFO.

Sarah Belle Reid (33:51.242)

And I grew up in Canada, so here, folks can send in their guesses. Anyway. So I knew the music inside and out, because I'd listened to the records endlessly. And I heard them deviate from the form and the song that I knew. And my mind was blown. It was so cool. And it was probably on purpose. I don't know. Maybe it was a mistake. Maybe it was on purpose. But regardless, those moments when things are different, they're special.

Brian Funk (33:55.763)

Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid (34:20.772)

So even if it is a mistake and you're like, whoops, I skipped a verse or I played this twice as long or whatever, either no one knows or the people who are your big fans, they know and they're like, this is cool. I just got a really special experience. I heard something that's different.

Brian Funk (34:38.834)

Well, it's part of why I think we like live music. I get a little bit of a weird feeling. And as much as I do my Ableton Live thing and I work with clips and stuff like that sometimes, I do get just this weird feeling when I feel like I'm hearing the exact same thing that happened in every city, every time. It's kind of like, well, like...

Sarah Belle Reid (34:42.467)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (35:08.102)

Why am I here almost? And now too we can correct everything and make everything so perfect that it's, to me personally at least, it's just not as interesting as the stuff that has it's, I don't know, it's like people wearing too much makeup or airbrushing their pictures compared to like what they really look like is just so much more interesting.

Sarah Belle Reid (35:24.58)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (35:37.508)

Yeah, I remember I had a trumpet lesson once with this amazing trumpet player named Nate Woolley. He's based in New York and we've over the years become colleagues and friends, but we were improvising together. And this was early on in my days as an improviser. So I was very focused because I was just freshly emerging from my classical training. I was very focused on getting it right. I was worried about improvising correctly, which of course,

Brian Funk (35:37.546)

Sarah Belle Reid (36:06.894)

When you're making music up on the spot, like there's no such thing as correct. It's like you just make it up. especially free improvisation. Obviously some schools of improvisation, like if you're doing kind of straight ahead jazz, stuff like that, there are more rules to follow. But what I'm talking about is just totally open, totally free. Play anything that comes to your mind kind of improvisation. So I was very much focused on getting it right. And we played together for 10 or 15 minutes and he looked at me and he was like, okay.

That was kind of like a nice handshake, I guess. It was very surface level. And he's like, I really want to hear who you are. Let it be a little ugly. Let it be a little bit weird. Let it be beautiful, but just let it be you. Play. Really play. And I had a ton of adrenaline, and I was kind of a little bit like.

How dare he say that, but also a little scared. So I just kind of went for it. We played again for another 15 minutes and it was wild. Like was all over the place. I made a ton of mistakes. I cracked, like missed a lot of notes. You know, I thought it was terrible. And then at the end of the improvisation, he was just like, he was like, yeah, he's like, you know, you've gotta let the wheels, you've gotta let the wheels almost come off in a live performance.

in order to know that you're doing something interesting. That's what he said. He's like, if you feel like you're just moving forward and everything's super secure and going as planned, you're probably not doing anything interesting as an improviser. But if you feel like the wheels are about to fall off, you know you're getting where you need to be. And I've never forgotten that. And so every time I walk on stage, I'm like, OK, wheels are coming off.

Brian Funk (37:53.659)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (37:54.266)

Let's see where we end up.

Brian Funk (37:57.073)

That's funny. He's basically the same metaphor when I play with my band. We like that feeling where it's like you're turning too sharp and the one side of the car is coming off the ground a little bit and there's a chance it's just going to flip over. But that spot where it just balances and comes back and that's...

Sarah Belle Reid (38:08.739)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (38:13.38)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (38:17.976)

Yeah. It's magic.

Brian Funk (38:20.21)

that's a fun spot to be because, know, what's going to happen? It's exciting. It's uncharted territory a bit.

Sarah Belle Reid (38:30.906)

Exactly. Yeah.

Brian Funk (38:34.344)

I'm, I don't know if I said this on the podcast, but I feel like I say it a lot to people around me, but I'm reading this book called Why Greatness Can't Be Planned. The Myth of the Objective is the subtitle. And it's all about how when you have a goal and when you know what you want, it like constrains you, it limits you and stuff. And it comes from the perspective of like computer programmers and all of that. But the...

great things like you don't know what it is really until you're almost there and it really advocates instead of like trying to get yourself to this goal, go out on a limb and when you go out on the limb then you find the next limb you can grab onto and then from there you see the next one that you couldn't see two limbs back and it gets you into those interesting places.

Sarah Belle Reid (39:19.086)

Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid (39:29.007)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:32.602)

And it's more about pursuing what's interesting and exciting than what's right. And when I can remember that when I'm making music, it's so much more fun and it's exciting. And sometimes, yeah, like the car blows up and it doesn't work out, but it's...

Sarah Belle Reid (39:39.086)

Right.

Sarah Belle Reid (39:52.76)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:56.516)

At least, even when that happens too, it's still like kind of cool. I guess like kind of like explosions too. But because the best you can do when you have that goal in mind is like stuff that's already happened. Stuff that you've already seen, stuff you've already imagined even. And yeah, improvisation is a great way to get there. But like you said too, you can also be like safe about it.

Sarah Belle Reid (40:04.835)

Yeah!

Sarah Belle Reid (40:22.318)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (40:26.169)

Not really.

Sarah Belle Reid (40:27.81)

You can be. You can plan it a little too much, which I definitely try not to do. But even if you don't want to necessarily be an improvising performer, you can bring elements of improvisation into your workflow in so many different ways. For example, something that I love to do that's really, really simple and really fun when I am not exactly sure.

Let's say I've got Ableton open and I want to start a new piece of music and I'm not exactly sure where to begin. And I don't want to just default to my habits of like, okay, I always start with this tool or I always start with this sound or whatever. I'll grab two or three random audio files from a folder in my computer that I recorded weeks or months or years prior. And I have no idea. If I'm lucky, I have no idea what's in them or I have some idea, you know.

And then I'll just pull them in and I'll drop them in the timeline and I'll layer them on top of each other and I'll just hit play and I'll see what I hear. And that's a version of improvisation in a way, because you're taking things and you're mashing them together in some unpredictable way and you're just listening and you're seeing what's emerging from that. And then from there, there might be one little sound that you really like or one cool little combination of sounds from the layers. And then you could just take that and that could be your starting point.

That's kind of like your first limb, right? And then from there, you're like, well, now that I've heard that, I've got an idea for my next step. And you didn't have it planned out. You just threw paint on the wall, so to speak, and then ran with what you had.

Brian Funk (42:10.747)

Yeah, it kind of makes me think of something I wanted to bring up with you too. You were hanging out with Andrew Huang and you guys were making music without hearing what the other person was making. And, you know, I think that's just so cool because both of you are very accomplished musicians. You guys know your way around theory and everything.

probably at a place that a lot of people that haven't started yet wish they could be at so they could start. And here you guys are just throwing all that out the window. And just to see what happens for the sake of the excitement of it and how are we gonna react to it now. I just think that's a really cool way to...

Sarah Belle Reid (42:45.612)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (42:55.279)

Right.

Brian Funk (42:59.747)

It doesn't have to be every time you make music, but to find little things like that, to just stir it up a little, you know, let's just see what happens.

Sarah Belle Reid (43:08.14)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, especially when you're feeling, you know, a little stuck or a little in your head about the right next move. Like, that's the right, that's such a good moment to reach for one of these types of ideas. You know, instead of letting yourself get totally paralyzed by what's the right next move, right? In this track or this piece, you could just say, OK, I'm going to take a moment. I'm just going to throw paint on the wall. I'm just going to grab five samples.

from five different folders and I'm going to play them all at the same time. And it might be terrible, it gets you moving, right? It gets you moving in some way. And even going, wow, that was terrible. Let me try five others. That's progress. That's forward movement, as opposed to just sitting and worrying and wondering what the right move is.

And this project with Andrew, it's something that I call imaginative listening. I've been doing this with people for years and I've got a couple videos on my YouTube channel of different people I've collaborated with in this way. You don't pre-plan, you don't talk about a key or a tempo or anything. There's no pre-planning and you can't hear each other and you're basically recording a duo where you are playing at the same time but you have no idea what the other person's doing.

and then you just superimpose the tracks. It's kind of like what I was just talking about, where you take files from two different folders and just drop them together. It's just that it involves another human. And the reason why I call it imaginative listening is because the only thing you can do is imagine what might they be doing and listen in the deepest and most curious way possible to both yourself and to all the possible sounds around you in the world.

Brian Funk (44:36.423)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (45:00.93)

It's a really powerful exercise.

Brian Funk (45:05.455)

It's cool because you might feel some pressure for it to be good, but you've got the built-in excuse. Like you're off the hook immediately. Like I can't hear what he's doing. I don't know what's going to happen. So you get to be, I love things like that, have like a pressure to them, but because of the pressure, it cancels it out. Like, like that's like the kind of thing. if.

Sarah Belle Reid (45:13.647)

Yeah.

Yeah, you have no clue.

Sarah Belle Reid (45:29.615)

Right.

Brian Funk (45:33.383)

If I don't know how you guys might do the videos, but I assume it was going to be whatever it was going to be no matter what. And anyone watching it would be like, well, yeah, I mean, can't blame them. They can't hear each other. So you're kind of like free to be anything. if it's terrible, like, yeah, OK, fair enough.

Sarah Belle Reid (45:40.819)

yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (45:47.522)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (45:51.61)

Exactly.

Sarah Belle Reid (45:55.97)

It was a crazy experiment to begin with. So yeah, if it's terrible, then well, nothing lost really. Yeah, but I will say more often than not, it's not terrible. More often than not, it's really cool. just like more often than not, when you grab random samples from your computer and put them together, there's something cool that you hear. And I think...

Brian Funk (45:59.43)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:08.475)

Right.

Sarah Belle Reid (46:21.7)

There is a state of mind that you kind of have to be in, an open, of curious state of mind. Like if you're expecting it to come out like a, you know, traditional key, four on the floor kind of song structure, you'll probably be disappointed because the likelihood of that happening with two people who can't hear each other is slim. But if you're open to something that's a little more, you know, unusual and experimental, there's always something really magical that happens with these collaborations.

What I find is that there's combinations of sounds and gestures and musical moments that I would never do if I was letting my brain lead. Right? Like if I was thinking, what's the next correct move or what's the music theory correct thing to do? I would never do some of the things that happen in this, like, imaginative listening kind of

Brian Funk (47:17.126)

Right. Yeah. I mean, I get that sometimes even playing with other people, you just don't look at what they're doing. And you try to figure something out and, oh yeah, you're not supposed to play that. No, but hey, look at that. This freedom to just, to suck, like to be terrible is liberating, really. And it opens new paths and new ideas all the time.

Sarah Belle Reid (47:25.229)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (47:37.69)

Freedom to suck. Yep.

Sarah Belle Reid (47:46.33)

Yeah, that reminds me of there's a recording engineer that I've worked with a bunch and he always used to do something that he would call the dare to fail take. So after you've kind of got it and you've got your recording done and you nailed it, it's good, or at least it's good enough, you've got a good take. Then he'll be like, okay, okay, we're all good here, we've got what we need, let's do a dare to fail or a dare to suck or whatever.

take where literally anything could happen. You could fall on your face. It doesn't matter because we've already got what we need. And I swear 99 % of the time that's the take that gets used because people just are like, okay, cool. They relax a little. They have a little more fun. They take a few more chances. They might make a mistake or two, but they don't let it phase them. They just keep going. And there's just always this energy that's so vibrant in those dare to fail takes.

So I've always, I always try to remind myself that, you know, like, let's just do one more and like, let's let it rip. And if it sucks, it sucks. It doesn't matter.

Brian Funk (48:51.118)

I think I read that Aerosmith does that like once every so often when they rehearse or maybe it's recording something that's like a dare to suck or kind of that idea where listen everything is fair game tonight.

Sarah Belle Reid (48:56.166)

really?

Sarah Belle Reid (49:10.078)

I think it's a really clever, clever thing to do. It opens up a lot.

Brian Funk (49:17.43)

I love that kind of stuff. It's my favorite part, I think, of playing with my band that I play with. Because we don't bring songs to the practice. I don't write a song and say, OK, guys, this is your part.

We just play and something starts to happen and start blabbering and into the mic and every once in a while, like if you just have at it long enough, things come together and things happen and next thing you know, you're pursuing it and it's stuff you would never do. Like you said, you just wouldn't do that on purpose. Happens.

Sarah Belle Reid (49:58.27)

Yeah. Right. Yeah, I think the key to what you just said that, or what I really heard is that you just have to start. And I know that sometimes it's a little annoying. It can be annoying to hear someone be like, what's the best way to get good at something or to do this or do that? just start, you know, can be a bit of a frustrating answer sometimes, but I think it's really true. You know, just start with a single note. Start with a single brushstroke. Start with

a single sample, turn on your mic and start mumbling into the microphone and it might not all be golden and it definitely won't be in fact. It won't all be perfect, but it gets you moving. And when you have momentum and you're moving, it's like you're climbing the tree. You've got your limb and then, now you can see something you couldn't see. It's, you know, and it's fun to come back full circle to the fun part, which is also, you know, why, why we're here.

Brian Funk (50:48.164)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:54.237)

It's really important to keep that in mind, the fun part. That is a great way. And you kind of just play the numbers game, really. You just show up enough.

Sarah Belle Reid (51:03.213)

Exactly.

Brian Funk (51:04.938)

And I like that a lot and I'm really more and more just buying into I'm working as fast as I can and I'm just leaving stuff behind making stuff and that's where I was. It's like a diary. I'm not trying to make the masterpiece today. I'm just making it and that's where I was today and onto the next one. And I think every time you go through that process too, does, I don't know if it gets easier, but

Maybe it gets easier, you just start to believe in it more and more.

Sarah Belle Reid (51:39.758)

Yeah, yeah, it builds that trust that in yourself that like, like you will figure it out. You know, not every day will be your masterpiece. But yeah, like you said, if you do it enough, you know, you'll land somewhere, you know, when the wheels go on the car and you the reason why you can do that and have fun with it and not think that's terrifying is that you've done it so many times that you know, no matter where I land.

Brian Funk (52:00.134)

Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid (52:09.316)

I'll figure it out. Something cool will come of it. And it just takes jumping in and getting started with what you have and being willing to suck at it for a while as you build that experience and build that confidence in yourself.

Brian Funk (52:28.257)

And if you do it regularly, there's always tomorrow. you can almost just throw every day away in that sense that it's not a big deal really. I mean, there's so many bigger problems in the world and there's so many more important things, you know, to just... It's real sad when you let all that...

Sarah Belle Reid (52:32.558)

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah Belle Reid (52:47.13)

It's a good reminder. Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:54.077)

self-doubt and negativity creep into the thing that's supposed to be your release, your expression, or whatever you want to call it. Because it happens very easily. It really does.

Sarah Belle Reid (53:01.774)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (53:07.644)

yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's easy to put so much pressure on yourself about, you know, not just getting it right, but just believing in your ability, you know. Can I do this? Does anyone care? All that kind of stuff. I mean, I hear it all the time from my students, but I also, there's like, and I think it's important to say that, you know, everyone feels those things and thinks those things. Even the artist who you think.

you being whoever is listening to this, is like...

immune to those thoughts. The person who used like, oh, they're just so productive. They're so amazing. They make amazing records. Everything they make is amazing. Behind the scenes, I promise you, there are piles of discarded tracks, discarded demos, things that never see the light of day. And they have days where they're just like, oh, I'm not feeling good about this. I don't know. Maybe I should scrap this. Does anyone care? Like, we're all human. The difference is that they

They're like, there's tomorrow. And then they pack it up, they come back the next day, and they just get back to work. And they do it again and again and again and again. And they don't let that stop them fully.

Brian Funk (54:24.165)

I've spoken to people here on right in this seat, just like you, but you're like, even you, even you have the doubt, even you're unsure. Like, I'm sure people are looking at you being like, well, what do you mean? How could you, everything you do, you seem comfortable and you know how to do this stuff. You're not afraid to jump into a weird new toy. You've never even you feel that, but it's.

Sarah Belle Reid (54:36.291)

Of course.

Brian Funk (54:54.093)

It's not that I wish those feelings on everybody else, but it is a little bit comforting to know that everybody pretty much confesses that they have these feelings of the doubt and the, can't do that again. They make something great and it's like, how am I ever going to do that again? So even the success sometimes brings it on.

Sarah Belle Reid (55:01.038)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (55:12.29)

Exactly. my God, I can't believe it.

Sarah Belle Reid (55:17.818)

Absolutely. Yeah, and I think the thing that's really important is just, okay, so we all have those feelings. We're human. Welcome to the club. Now what? What are you gonna do, right? Like, you could let it derail you. You could believe all of those thoughts. This is a really big thing. I'm gonna go on a tiny tangent. I hope that's okay. It might be a big tangent. I don't know, but you know, a lot of the time...

we have these thoughts, these things, maybe they're voices in our head or thoughts that we have on repeat that we've actually kind of adopted from somewhere else. Like, no one cares. My music is too noisy, which is a big one. used to, you know, I, before I released my first record, I sat on it for a long time because I was too worried that people were going to think it was too weird, too noisy, too experimental, you know, and they just wouldn't like it. And that really became like, I don't know where that came from.

I heard it from someone or I made it up and I started to really think that it was a truth, like a objective truth and I started to believe it like it was a truth. And for you it might be like, know, no one cares or I'm not a good singer or whatever it is, there might just be this story that you've gotten from someone else or you've.

felt one day and then you've started to really believe as a fact. And I think it's just so important to remember that they're just stories and they're not objective truths. Not unless you make them objective truths, right? Like you could change that story. You could swap that story out for any other story and your whole outlook on life and creativity could change. So instead of like if you find yourself thinking to yourself every day, I'm a terrible singer.

and you commit to that story and you believe it, you're gonna have a hard go at things and you're probably not gonna grow too much as a singer. But if you choose the story like, I'm learning every time I get in my studio and sing, I get a little better. Now you've got a door wide open, right? And I just think it's so important to remember the power of our thoughts and the fact that these things that feel like they are fixed, absolute truths are not.

Sarah Belle Reid (57:36.206)

fixed absolute truths. Like they're not like, you know, the law of gravity or whatever. It's just something that we've heard and that we might genuinely feel, but it's kind of optional. So that's been really, really impactful for me is remembering in those moments when I am having a kind of crummy day and nothing's going well and I'm having a moment where I'm just feeling down on myself. can really, I try to interrupt myself and remind myself like Sarah.

The way that I talk to myself about this is optional. Like I get to choose. Do I say, here we are yet again, not finishing a track, you suck at this. Or am I saying to myself, I know I always figure it out. If I come back into the studio and I keep an open mind, I always figure it out. Two stories, two very different outcomes, right? And I just think that's, yeah, I think it's worth.

worth spending some time reflecting on.

Brian Funk (58:38.26)

It is, because thoughts just pop in our heads. They're just sort of like these automatic things. And it's very easy to just latch onto them and buy into them. And you don't have to. I've learned that a lot. There's some meditation, using like an app to meditate and

Sarah Belle Reid (58:43.962)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (59:02.23)

I found it, where it really became clear to me was in my teaching as a high school teacher, because there's some days where things maybe they weren't working out, the kids weren't excited about it or whatever it is, or I don't know what I'm going to do next. And then I start spiraling. It's like, no.

Sarah Belle Reid (59:18.81)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (59:23.438)

how did you even get to be a teacher? All these parents trust you with their kids and they spend 40 minutes with you every day and all you did was just sit through classes and turn in garbagey assignments and here you are. like, you know, next thing you know, I'm imagining the news covering my story of like phony exposed, you know, like getting taken out in handcuffs or something because, but then.

Sarah Belle Reid (59:43.834)

Right.

Sarah Belle Reid (59:52.154)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (59:53.111)

It's like I'm watching that movie. Like you're a terrible person. My dog's gonna bite me now or something because I'm horrible. It's like you just take it out and put it in the movie. Hey, you figured it out before. You've been here. You've gotten stuck and you're gonna do your best. You're gonna try. You're gonna...

You know, just remind yourself, you're figuring it out too, and if it goes terribly, it's not the end of the world. But it is really just kind of like choosing. It's sometimes very hard to be aware of it when it's happening. But if you can catch it and just change it.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:00:35.362)

It can be very hard, yeah. But yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:42.024)

Find this... It doesn't have to be true. It's just... It has to just pick one that serves you better. Really, reality is just our own perception on things anyway. So, might as well pick a good one.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:00:47.766)

Exactly. And the way that I

Sarah Belle Reid (01:00:52.972)

Exactly. Yeah. And I always say, choose just a slightly better feeling thought. It doesn't, you don't have to go all the way from, you know, I suck at music and no one cares to, you know, something that's just so far on the other side. Like, I'm a, you know, whatever, a world class, everyone, like, because then your brain's not going to believe you. Your brain's going be like, this is ridiculous. But a slightly better feeling thought, like a thought that's

Brian Funk (01:01:10.488)

Yeah, right.

Sure.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:01:20.088)

Like every day I'm getting a little better, or I'm figuring this out, or I'm willing to try, or I know that if I commit to this, something cool will happen. Just something that when you say it in your body, you have a little bit more kind of hope and openness. That's where you want to go. And it can be so powerful. If you do that every day or a couple times a day, to me now, this is just built into who I am.

I'm always kind of course correcting the way that I'm thinking about things, but it does take practice. I used to walk around with a notebook actually. And whenever I would notice a kind of limiting thought or something that would make me feel bummed out, would actually write it down and then I would like sit there and consciously like be like, okay, what's a new, I'd like design a new thought instead. And then I try it on, like putting on a new hat and be like, yeah, this one feels better. I'm like, I'm gonna go with this one for a while. And I'd circle it on the page.

And I just kept doing that over and over again until it kind of became second nature.

Brian Funk (01:02:21.892)

It's funny, but sometimes you realize you're saying things to yourself you would never say to your worst enemy. Or you're saying things to yourself if you heard someone else say, you'd be like, stop it! You're being stupid. You'd smack them on the back of the head. You're being an idiot, come on. This is a pity party or something. But sometimes, whether it's writing it down or just paying attention to it, you can...

Sarah Belle Reid (01:02:35.0)

You're being ridiculous. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:50.622)

realize what you're going through. It's very hard to do all the time. But yeah, I think that's good advice you have that maybe it doesn't have to be like, I'm the best actually, because that's not a good place to be either, I don't think.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:02:55.556)

Yeah.

It is, it is hard to do. Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:03:11.256)

Right, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:03:13.668)

But yeah, just a little bit of a, yeah, you're having a bad day with this. Can you make it better? Can you make it fun, like you said, is a good way to, you know, just make it fun. So I'm to really lean into the stupid song and make it as stupid as we can.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:03:25.102)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:03:32.386)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:03:36.844)

It's so much mental stuff though. It's funny.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:03:40.738)

It's a big part of being a musician, right? mean, it's a technique. We started early on talking about theory and all of this technical stuff, and that's a big part of it. And studying all that's important. But yeah, the inner game, the mindset stuff is huge. I didn't realize how much of a role it played really early on in my musical life. But now I think I spend just as much effort, if not more, working on my

like what's going on up here mentally as I do, you know, working on production technique and studying new gear and all that kind of stuff.

Brian Funk (01:04:20.644)

Yeah, they kind of go hand in hand because you get a little more confidence, but there's never going to be a point where you feel like you're good enough. And I like that, though, because that means there's more to learn. There's like, I could get if I was as good as I was ever going to get. like, that's OK. That's like the finish line or something.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:04:34.392)

Exactly.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:04:44.558)

Yeah, I know. I've always heard there's some, I can't remember who it was right now, a really amazing saxophone player, I think, who was like, the day that I figured it all out and can play everything I need to play, it's the day the horn goes in the case and it never comes back out. Basically like, once I know it all, what's the point? Because music is about, you know, it's a discovery. It's about re-learning who you are and what's possible.

It kind of just, yeah, it's not about getting it right and knowing all the answers.

Brian Funk (01:05:23.224)

Yeah, I think Keith Richards talked about his guitar being the puzzle and like every time there's a new piece or the pieces go together in a different way and it's not a fixed thing. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it think because it just keeps it fascinating all the time.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:05:23.862)

At not for me.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:05:36.996)

like that.

Brian Funk (01:05:49.102)

Can we talk about the course? The exciting time of the year, it's back. So if people are listening relatively soon to when this comes out, learning sound and synthesis is coming back. so this is your course that comes along, I think twice a year maybe. I have people from my music production club and people that I interact with online.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:05:55.566)

Sure.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:06:04.589)

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:06:09.338)

That's right.

Brian Funk (01:06:16.991)

and like our Discord and stuff that have been in it and they love it and they get a lot out of it. On a lot of levels, I think this conversation probably proves that, that it's not just learning sound and synthesis. There's like... It's more than that, I think, that you're offering people.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:06:30.426)

I'll see what you did there.

Brian Funk (01:06:38.871)

Well, I'm even looking at like, I actually just left this picture that you're playing around with a couple of the Moog defams and stuff, but you got the quotes from what people said and, you know, sucking is something, sucking at something is the first step to getting really great at it, which is awesome. So well put, be open to what you don't know, go deeper. there's a lot of, none of that is like turn the oscillator on to, you know, none of.

that kind of thing. But I know that's what you're offering too, so it'd be great to hear about it.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:07:11.854)

Yeah, it's a mix, very much by design. Because again, like this whole conversation has been such a great example of that balance. So the class that I teach is absolutely about how to make music with synthesizers. It's about how to learn sound synthesis, all of the technical nitty gritty stuff, LFOs and sequencers and oscillators and clocks and all that good stuff. But then,

That's just one piece of the puzzle. And I think that if you just focus on the technical how-to, you can become a technician, but there's more to it. I'm really interested in helping people grow as artists and creative thinkers and honestly, as people. so the technical how-to is a big part, but then there's another huge part of the class that's really focused on all of these kinds of conversations.

Like when we walk into the studio to sit down at our instrument, what goes through our head? What are some different workflows that we can use to make music and to pull new stuff out of ourselves? How do we balance practicing and studying with producing or creating? How do we work through creative obstacles and blocks?

around sharing our music or around getting started or how do we know when something's done? Like all of these big questions that are really not about synthesis, they just apply generally to being a musician, we definitely spend a lot of time diving deep into. And I think that it makes it more fun for me as a teacher to kind of have that broader range, but it also makes it a lot more

meaningful for the people who are in the class because they're, you know, they're not just getting the stuff that you could get in a manual, right? Connect this and that to get that sound. They're getting that, but then they're also getting the like, okay, and now here are all these ways to apply this creatively and think about this in a new way and grow your own voice as an artist in the meantime. Does that make sense?

Brian Funk (01:09:30.643)

It makes a lot of sense. I understand that. Funny thing too is you can understand it intellectually, but in practice it's still always challenging to implement. So it's good to have.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:09:44.58)

worse.

Brian Funk (01:09:49.068)

other people going through it too. really is like one of the things I love about having conversations like this is that to kind of sort through it and remind yourself of it and understand like how you deal with it and how you think about it.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:09:51.214)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:03.799)

How can I pull that in? And you said be better. I think he said be better people or have better lives, but so often I feel like we're talking about music, but it's the metaphor for like how to live because these things, the...

Sarah Belle Reid (01:10:16.162)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:20.255)

Nobody thinks I'm a good artist. No one cares or something. It's the same thing when you're with people and you get a weird text and you're like, are they mad? They're mad at me. I knew it. And then you write the whole story of why they're mad at you. And it's complete fiction. It doesn't exist. So it's nice to have that stuff. And I think it's so cool that

you're bringing that to people. Because these quotes I'm looking at, it's OK if it takes time. It's OK if it doesn't click right away. It's OK to have questions. It's OK. It's how you know you're growing. You could be talking about anything, really, and that would apply to. And that's not in the technical manual or the diagram that shows the signal flow.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:10:59.578)

Totally. Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:11:13.946)

You know, I started to work all of that into the class because I don't know if we've already talked about this. I don't think we have. But when I first started learning synthesis, like we started this conversation off by me saying, I use MaxMSP and you should learn modular synths and all of this. What I didn't tell you is that when I was getting started, I struggled so much to understand how it all worked. I did not come easy. It does not come easily to me.

Contrary to popular belief, people look at me and they're like, Sarah, she's got one of those brains where technical things just click. And that's just not true at all. It took me years of sitting with modular synths and studying them to finally feel comfortable and understand how they worked. And I've brought all of that into my teaching. I'm really grateful that it didn't come easily to me because I think it's made me a much better teacher because every time, you know, at every stop, I was the student who was like,

But why is that happening? And like, I don't understand that. And wait, wait, wait, I've got 10 questions that need answering. Like, I was that person who was always just like, ask one question, get 10 more. So I teach for that kind of student, right? I was also the kind of person who didn't feel smart enough to do technical things. And I was convinced I was too stupid for synthesis, even though I really was so passionate about it. I was like, I love these sounds. I want to do this.

but I'm not smart enough. And so when I finally, over many years, I finally started to, it started to click and I started to gain the confidence and the fluency, I knew it was really important. If I'm teaching this topic, I need to make sure that from the very beginning, I'm addressing the fact that so many people feel these same feelings. So many people feel, you know, passionate about synthesis, but overwhelmed.

They feel curious, but they maybe doubt if they're smart enough. They learn the basics and then things start to get a little hard and then they're like, my god, I'm too far behind. I've missed the, you know, whatever the story, again, these stories. And none of that's true. Let me just be the first person to say, if you're listening to this and you're like, that's me, I feel too far behind, I don't feel smart enough, it's not true. I have helped, at this point, this is shocking to me, but I was looking at some of our...

Sarah Belle Reid (01:13:39.788)

numbers in our free, the free class that I have, over 25,000 people have taken that. And I know for a fact that they've gone through and they've learned on the other side, they've come out making music with synths. So just know that like, you know, if you do feel like maybe I'm not smart enough or maybe I can't do this, it's not a matter of smarts. It's just a matter of having a process like to help you learn, having a structure to help you learn.

and then really starting to notice the stories that you tell yourself and choosing whether or not to believe them. And then, you know, showing up every day. You also mentioned a community, like having people to talk to, and that's a really big aspect of things too. In this class, we have a really amazing community. There's a forum space on discourse that we have where people ask questions, share their music, get feedback.

And we also do live calls on Zoom, multiple different kinds. So there's coaching calls where I am basically doing kind of like creative mentorship and giving people feedback, helping them with their technical questions. We do study halls that are actually led by alumni in the class. So you can show up with whatever you're working on and just get help or just hang out and co-work. We do open mics, which are really fun. So many of the students have had their first.

Brian Funk (01:15:02.092)

Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:15:04.193)

live performances ever in our Zoom open mics. And they're just a really supportive place to try something and also to hear what other people are doing. And so a lot of the time, you know, I've heard from so many people, like, I feel like I'm the only person on this planet who cares about these weird experimental sounds. I feel like I'm all alone. I'm so isolated in my practice. And then they come into this, the learning sound and synthesis community and they're like, holy crap.

There's hundreds of you, all of these people who get it and they care and they're celebrating what I'm doing and they're asking questions and it just becomes this beautiful snowball of momentum. You can tell I'm really passionate about this. It makes me very excited to talk about because the community element is just so powerful. Yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (01:15:49.718)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:15:57.163)

That feedback loop is real though. I I get so excited about that through my community as well. Like hearing people make stuff and create and overcome that. And like I never shared anything with anyone before. And it's so exciting. And it's, I really take a lot of joy out of that myself and a lot of inspiration because

Yeah, like sometimes you're working on stuff and it's impossible. Like, I can't do it anymore. How does anyone finish anything? And then you hear somebody do it you're like, you did it. Like you were able to do it. It's not impossible. There's something about seeing that and hearing people's story. And yeah, like you said, like that it's not like you were born with modular synths and understood it.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:16:32.579)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:16:51.542)

You've been on that long path and you know what that's like.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:16:55.694)

And I also know how insanely fun and rewarding it is to get to the, you know, I say the other side, but I'm still learning, obviously. There's so much I'll always be learning. There's so much I'm always gonna get deeper into in terms of working with these instruments, but there's a bass level of fluency and confidence that comes. And when you get to that point and things start to click, you are gonna have so much fun.

Because the sky's the limit. You can start to imagine sounds and create them. You can hear sounds in your favorite songs, like hear a bass line or hear a synth voice in your favorite song and know how to make it. It just becomes super, super rewarding. And so I love seeing people get to that point because then in some ways they're like, I think I've made it. And I'm like, this is just the beginning. Get ready. Because there's a lot ahead.

Brian Funk (01:17:43.104)

Yeah, right.

Brian Funk (01:17:48.15)

Yeah, I can remember that as a guitar player even learning some songs, like, I get it. And maybe thinking like certain guitar players weren't talented or something. And then coming back to that music 10 years later and being like, man, there's like a whole level I didn't even know was there.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:18:07.61)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:18:10.441)

Because it just seems like the horizon keeps getting further off and there's so much more terrain to explore.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:18:19.576)

Yeah, yeah, in an exciting way.

Brian Funk (01:18:23.945)

So people sign up. You want to tell them how to do that? So if they're interested. Because you've also got free stuff. There's a lot of valuable stuff there. I like that you give people a chance to see what it's about first, too. And you're very generous with that as well.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:18:29.398)

Sure. Yeah, I do.

Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:18:44.236)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so there's, well, so I think if people are listening to this shortly after it came out, then I'm running a handful of free live workshops that are basically focused, I'm calling it How to Finally Make Music with Synths without getting overwhelmed or lost in gear. That's kind of the idea. So if you're a beginner, if you're like,

I don't know, I've been curious about this for years. I don't know where to begin. Every time I look in the how to learn synthesis, I Google that or I YouTube it, I just get totally overwhelmed with videos and gear and there's just too many options. This is perfect for you. It's basically like three or four steps of focus on this first. I'm gonna break down the essential synthesis foundations that you need to be looking at first to kind of get a good foundation.

Then I am going to teach you one of my favorite kind of processes or recipes for building modular synth patches from scratch. It's only three steps, so it's like digestible. And by the end, you're going to be like, I do this, I do this, I do this, and I can make sound. And you can rinse and repeat and make endless sounds this way. And then I'm going to share one of my personal favorite.

exercises for developing your sound design skills. This is like life-changing for me. It's a listening exercise and we're actually gonna do it live in the workshop. So I'll guide you through a couple of different exercises. And people always rave about this by the end of the class, they're like, my God, I didn't see the connection. And this listening exercise opened up a lot for me. And then finally, I'll help people kind of demystify a little bit the process behind choosing your first synth. Cause that's a big one. Like where do I start?

What gear do I need? What do I need first? And I have a lot of really simple answers to help people get started on that path. So if you're listening to this soon and you want to join that workshop, I'm running it a few different times to try to reach as many different people, different time zones as possible. The link will be soundinsynthesis.com slash workshop. But maybe we can just leave that in the show notes as well. Does that sound OK?

Brian Funk (01:21:04.533)

Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:21:05.94)

And please join us. And if you missed that, then Learning Sound and Synthesis, the official course, it's going to open up for enrollment in late August. And it'll be open for one week. And then I will close enrollment back down and actually run the class. So definitely keep an eye out for that as well.

Brian Funk (01:21:32.209)

And if it happens to be passed then when you are listening there's still so much good stuff. Your YouTube channel is awesome. It's full of creative exercises and you demystify a lot of gear and you play and the Instagram is like that as well.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:21:37.153)

yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:21:49.496)

Yeah. I actually also, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. I also, I forgot that if you are listening to this in the future and learning sound synthesis is not open and I'm not running a live workshop, I actually also have another free introductory class that people can take that's called your first modular synth patch. And basically as the name suggests, it's a,

It'll teach you how to make your first modular synth patch. And it uses a free virtual synth software, so you don't need any gear. So we can leave the link to that one as well. And you can join that year round, any day, any time. You can get yourself started.

Brian Funk (01:22:33.289)

and soon enough it opens up again. So be patient.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:22:35.704)

Yeah, exactly. Every six months it opens up. Roughly, if anyone has any questions that they want to talk to me about any details behind the class or what to expect or what it's like or anything like that, please don't hesitate to DM me on Instagram or Facebook or anything like that and I'm happy to talk.

Brian Funk (01:23:00.991)

I'm excited to see your setup too for this performance that you're doing in Australia. Playing with some pedals and FX like that. Sounds fun and I'm sure you're going to do something inventive and unique to your style with it. So that should be cool too.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:23:18.702)

Thank you. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun to use this performance as an opportunity to explore a brand new workflow for me. It's something that I really like to do. It's like, got something coming up. I could do the same old, same old that I've done before, or I could just mix it up a bit and use it as an excuse to learn.

Brian Funk (01:23:39.157)

Yeah, it's a good way to keep it fresh. Yeah. Yeah, because we can sometimes fall into our ruts that way. So finding ways to mix it up is always smart. Cool. Well, we will send people that way show notes and everything. yeah, good luck with all that.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:23:53.644)

Yeah, 100%.

Sarah Belle Reid (01:24:03.322)

Thank you.

Brian Funk (01:24:04.417)

And thanks for coming on and thank you for anyone listening. Appreciate having you here. Have a good day.