Make Better Music Faster Using AI with Bobby Owsinski - Music Production Podcast #338

Bobby Owsinski is an audio engineer, producer, author, and educator. His book, The Mixing Engineer's Handbook is in its 5th edition and is a foundational part of college classrooms. Bobby writes about music production and gear on his blog Music 3.0. He also hosts the Podcast Bobby Owsinski's Inner Circle, which covers the latest industry news and features interviews with assorted music professionals.

I've been following and learning from Bobby's work for the last decade, so speaking with him was a true honor. Bobby spoke in great depth about his exploration of AI in music production. He spoke of the fears many producers have and how we can leverage the new technologies to take our music to new places faster.  

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Show Notes:

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

And don’t forget to visit my site https://BrianFunk.com for music production tutorials, videos, and sound packs.

Brian Funk

Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.006)

Hello everybody. Welcome to the Music Production Podcast. I'm your host, Brian Funk. And on today's show, I have Bobby Osinski. And I've been following Bobby for many years now. I've learned a ton about music production, mixing, and even just studio etiquette and the way to compose yourself and how the industry is changing. He...

Does his own podcast, Bobby Osinski's Inner Circle, which is a great show on music industry news and guests and interviews. He's got a music production blog. He's also got an industry blog, Music 3.0. Bobby's the author of many books, including The Mixing Engineer's Handbook, which is in its fifth edition. It's a textbook in college courses. He's got courses as well online, Music Mixing.

primer, Top 40 Mixing Secrets, and we're going to talk a lot about the AI music workshop, I think. You've done it all, basically, I think. You've played in bands, toured, been signed, gotten into recording, writing, creating courses, teaching, and you're helping others kind of following your footsteps. Bobby, it's so cool to have you here. Thanks for taking the time.

Bobby Owsinski (01:15.874)

Thank you, Brian. Yeah, I've had many careers.

Brian Funk (01:20.494)

Many careers within this career, right? It seems nowadays that's something you almost have to do and you have the opportunity to do now that it's not just this one thing when people, I think in the past were getting into music, they sort of had to kind of go in one direction, but now there's so many other avenues for people to go into to make something out of their love.

Bobby Owsinski (01:22.411)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (01:47.474)

Yeah, I think it's almost a necessity anymore that you have to be multifunctional in the music business because, and it's good because many times you start out doing one thing and you find, well, maybe there's this other thing over here that I really like too. And opportunities come that you didn't expect that takes you in a different direction. So it's worth it to be open-minded and all that.

That's for sure. I've seen it happen and it happened to me as an example.

Brian Funk (02:19.674)

Yeah, same for me too. I'm a high school English teacher by day, and I've done music always as well. And I kind of kept those lives separate for a long time. And then suddenly I started to see the connection and the way the paths kind of came together and a lot of the teaching I do with music and production.

Suddenly it started to make sense. It didn't at the time until I sort of looked back and said, oh yeah, I can see how this works and how these things kind of play into each other. Get surprised by that once in a while, I guess.

Bobby Owsinski (02:55.402)

Yeah, yeah, that's the way that works. It's the way it's supposed to work anyway.

Brian Funk (03:01.626)

One thing I love about what you do, and I think it's even evident in the name of your blog, Music 3.0, that it's always changing and you're one to really stay on top of those changes and kind of ride the wave of what's happening. Whereas a lot of people sometimes resist it, they don't like what's going on, they think it's whatever it might be cheating or technology is taking over or something, but I really like how you've managed to stay on top of that.

look ahead to what's coming rather than trying to hold on to what's happened already.

Bobby Owsinski (03:35.262)

Well, much of that is due to a short attention span. Ha ha ha. Uh, yeah, I get bored quickly. So if you stay on top of what's new, then it's difficult to be bored. And if I had to really narrow it down to one thing, that's it. But the other thing I've found is many times there are things that I get very interested in that I never expected. For instance, the whole AI thing. When I first got into it, it was like, hey, this is fun. This is really neat.

Brian Funk (03:38.866)

Hehehehe

Brian Funk (03:49.103)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (04:03.847)

Hmm.

Bobby Owsinski (04:05.05)

So I, you know, got into it more than I expected to because I quite enjoy it.

Brian Funk (04:12.098)

Right. Yeah. It's coming anyway, right? That's something you've said in the video previews for the course that you have, which we should maybe talk about a little, is that it's coming, like it or not.

Bobby Owsinski (04:14.839)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (04:26.062)

There's some noise in the background, does this bother you?

Brian Funk (04:29.895)

I don't even hear it.

Bobby Owsinski (04:31.214)

Great, no problem. I have my housekeeper here, and she's banging around and stuff, so if you don't hear it, I'm good. I'm sorry, could you ask the question again? I was distracted.

Brian Funk (04:38.787)

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:42.926)

Um, yeah, you, you made the point that like it or not AI is here. And you even said in the, in the video, uh, that kind of introduces the course that you kind of can't afford to miss it. I was kind of interested in, and if you wouldn't mind getting into that a little bit, like this is not just like a fad. It's not just something that's happening. It's certainly not something that people can ignore.

Bobby Owsinski (05:11.646)

Well, there's a lot to unpack there. One thing is that, you know, we use AI every day. You open up your phone, that's facial recognition, that's machine learning AI that you've trained. If you use your fingerprint or anything, again, that's machine learning, you've trained it, it's AI. If you go on Amazon and it says products you might like.

That's AI, kind of figure that out. So we're using, oh, we use Siri or Alexa. Guess what, it's AI. So we've been using it quite a lot for quite longer than we think. And to think that it's not helpful to us in any way, or it's somehow going to take our jobs, make us useless as people.

As humans, you know, there's a lot of that going around. I attribute it to sensationalistic headlines clickbait and Unfortunately, it's too many people buy into it. I've had pushback on this AI Project that you wouldn't believe I've had hate mail for the first time in my life. I mean actual hate mail or People are saying, you know, you're a traitor to the music community

Brian Funk (06:03.986)

I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Brian Funk (06:24.794)

Really?

Bobby Owsinski (06:31.662)

for embracing this, yeah. It's been beyond what I would have expected. When the fact of the matter is, again, we've been using this for a long time. If you use drum machines, if you use digital audio workstations, if you use synthesizers, well, when those products first came out, everybody said the same thing. It's going to replace humanity.

Brian Funk (06:32.219)

Wow.

Bobby Owsinski (07:01.85)

and music cannot be better. It was better the old way. Well, music progresses like everything else. So this is just another tool and you have to look at it that way.

Brian Funk (07:13.89)

Right. I guess you can go back to Bob Dylan playing electric guitar to see.

Bobby Owsinski (07:17.362)

Yeah, yeah, there you go. That's a perfect example, yeah. And people rebelled and then they get used to it and it was okay.

Brian Funk (07:24.278)

Mm-hmm. There's a funny meme that goes around every once in a while with somebody talking about, they need to, they don't use presets. So they design their own presets and now they don't, you know, use software that's been designed by somebody else because it influences how they work. So they design their own software. They don't like to use an instrument. And basically by the end of it, they're making their own drum skins out of goats. So there's kind of like a

level, I guess people can really get to if you follow that train of thought to its full you know conclusion you are Everything you're relying on is some sort of technical technological advancement

Bobby Owsinski (08:09.534)

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with doing any of that. But to be dogmatic about it is the problem. If you insist that that's the only way music can be done and everybody must do it that way, that's where I have a problem with it. But if you're doing that and you like it and it works for you, hey, more power to you. You're coming up with something brand new or something that's been here before and is coming back again.

Brian Funk (08:19.793)

Right.

Bobby Owsinski (08:39.879)

No problem. But just don't feel that's the only way to do things because there are many, there are many roads to the same place.

Brian Funk (08:41.091)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (08:48.27)

Right, yeah, it might depend on the type of work you're doing. It calls for those types of sounds or tools, but others don't as much.

Bobby Owsinski (08:54.507)

Yeah, yeah.

Well, one of the things about AI, when I've looked at a lot of the tools, and last time I looked it was 120, 130 different AI tools that I've actually played with. And a lot of these are music tools, I'd say the majority of music tools. There's one thing that really jumps out. It's especially good at electronic music, AI. It's also good at punk music.

Brian Funk (09:26.322)

punk.

Bobby Owsinski (09:27.278)

Yeah, so why? Like for instance creating sounds or recreating sounds. Why? Well, AI is really good at distortion and chaos. You can say that's the essence of punk. It's also really good at being robotic, which at its heart that's what it is. And that's electronic music. So, and then there's a third thing in that many of the programmers

are really young and they're into electronic music. So everything tends to skew that way as a result.

then what you find is a lot of these AI music programs are really deep in terms of programming. So I always felt that AI should be there to make our life easier. We should just be able to go in and make things really fast and go from there. But many of these are really deep. If you're 20 years old and you have all the time in the world to go and play with more parameters than you've ever seen in your life,

Well, they're, of course, that's perfect for you. Most pros aren't like that, unfortunately. Most pros, they wanna get on with it as fast as they can. Now, the opposite of that would be AI audio tools, as opposed to AI music generation tools, which tend to be deep. AI, and I'm talking about the pro level tools, not the consumer level tools. Consumer level is very superficial.

in terms of what you can do. But when it comes to audio, audio is completely different. Audio is very easy. It's built around the learn knob, the learn parameter, learn button. So it's learning the sound that you're inputting. And in some cases, profile. So even before you hit the learn button, you go in and say, well, this is a drum sound coming in. This is a kick drum. This is a type of music.

Bobby Owsinski (11:37.25)

that it's this genre and that's all you have. And then you go from there and you can tweak things a little bit. So you can see there's, and again, it's made for pros. Or someone that's just starting and they go, I can't get this right when I use a real compressor so I'll use this one and it will do it for me. And it will. And I look at that and I think, yes, that's the epitome of what AI in music should be doing.

It should be making our life easier and faster. It shouldn't be taking our job, it doesn't. AI is not good at nuances like people are. People are really good at nuances. AI is good at getting in the ballpark and then the nuances are up to you and I. So I had someone explain this to me perfectly where, and you being a teacher, you'd understand this completely. If someone,

Brian Funk (12:08.218)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (12:21.489)

Hmm.

Bobby Owsinski (12:35.602)

If you ask your class for term paper, send, you know, I need a term paper from you. If someone gives you a blank page, it's an F. And that's a problem. It's called the blank page problem where people cannot come up with an idea. AI is really good for coming up with ideas. So if you ask it to fill up this page on whatever topic you want, what you get is equivalent of a C or maybe a B minus.

That's it, that's all it does, just fills it in. But if you then put your input in, then you're taking it to an A. So it needs you on top of it to make it something special. But just by itself, you get good stuff. Maybe even very good sometimes, but it's not great like a human can do.

Brian Funk (13:24.026)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (13:29.134)

I've noticed that with ChatGVT. You can ask it to write something for you and it does a decent job. And it's...

It's in the kind of revisions that you give it where the magic starts happening. And as a high school teacher, some of those revisions might be for a student, like, we'll write this in the voice of a 10th grader and include 22 grammatical errors. Like, and I kind of equate that a little bit to

Bobby Owsinski (13:54.674)

Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Brian Funk (13:59.63)

It's something I've kind of been doing with music since I've started working on a computer because for so long my dream was, oh, my drums will be right on time. Everything will be in tune. It'll be, it's going to sound great. And as soon as I do that, it sounds lifeless. So now I'm kind of re-engineering all of my human flaws. I'm quantizing maybe to only a certain percentage or shifting things off the grid a little, and I'm introducing distortion and mimic like a tape machine or something.

So it's, it's like the kind of the equivalent of what you were doing with AI. If you're trying to get a certain feel out of it, a certain voice or a certain style. That's where kind of the interesting stuff happens.

Bobby Owsinski (14:41.066)

You know, it's funny, it's funny you should mention that though. That's something that we learned in the early days of MIDI. And, uh, and I'm talking about when MIDI first came out and for sequencers where, yeah, everybody wanted it on the grid and right away it's like, eh, that doesn't sound so good. So then we learned, okay, if we went back five ticks here and maybe put the, you know, the bass back 10 ticks.

Brian Funk (14:59.257)

Mm-hmm

Bobby Owsinski (15:08.83)

and all of a sudden it sounded more real. And maybe on the snare drum, maybe you're going 10 or 12 back, and you go, well, that sounds more like it. So this is something that we found out really early on, that being on the grid isn't always what you want. Now that being said, there are some fantastic drummers that are naturally on the grid that still sounds great, and I equate that to really good internal time. So.

Brian Funk (15:24.114)

Hmm.

Bobby Owsinski (15:39.238)

meaning that if everything is exactly on the grid, that's not the way a human plays. There are some things that might sound better on the grid, kick drum, maybe, but the rest of what's going on in a drummer is back in time a little bit, but a really great drummer is back at the same amount all the time, or roughly the same amount.

Brian Funk (15:45.883)

Right.

Brian Funk (16:05.138)

Mm-hmm, consistent.

Bobby Owsinski (16:10.106)

It changes so minutely, moves so minutely, that it feels good, it feels human. But therein lies the difference between something that's lifeless and something that has, it sounds real only great.

Brian Funk (16:26.438)

Mm-hmm.

Bobby Owsinski (16:27.578)

And again, going back to the early midi days, these are things that we discovered.

Brian Funk (16:34.106)

Yeah, it's shocking when you finally get what you want, what you think you want, only to realize like, I kind of miss the way my old cassette four track machine would kind of add this little magic into it. And I was trying to scrub clean for so long.

Bobby Owsinski (16:37.361)

Yeah, yeah, all right.

Bobby Owsinski (16:46.412)

Well.

Okay, so let's go there for a second because that's another thing. This one gets me particularly because this whole thing, the glamour built around tape machine saturation, we used to hate that. And it baffles me while people wanna put it in, it's like, we wanted to get rid of that. Everybody hated it. Because you listen to this great sound just coming through the console.

and be like, oh, this is wonderful, sounds clean, it's big and everything. And then it goes to the tape machine, you play it back and you go, what happened? It doesn't sound the same. So when digital came along, the first digital, the Sony 33, 24s and 48s, everybody went crazy because it's like, oh, okay, now it's coming back the same as what I hear. So now we have this whole glamorization of saturation.

Brian Funk (17:26.256)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (17:47.358)

especially tape saturation, which you talk to most of the people that were around back then they go, it's not something that we really liked.

Bobby Owsinski (18:01.386)

But, no, I have to say, if it works for people, then you gotta go do it. There's no question. If you like the sound, if it's part of what you do, then you do that. So far be it from me to say, don't even think about that. It's just like, let's put it into perspective. Because this wasn't something that was desirable back when so much.

Brian Funk (18:08.912)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:25.774)

Yeah, it's a weird irony, right? That we kind of crave those things that we were fighting against so hard. And I do have a tape machine here and I love it for that sound. It's maybe it's nostalgia. I don't know. That's a little extra energy.

Bobby Owsinski (18:28.139)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (18:34.284)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:46.438)

But it doesn't take long of using it to understand why digital has become the norm. Because it's finicky, it's troublesome, and even if you have it producing that sound you like, it's not the same every time. And next thing you know, you got to get it repaired. And that's no fun either.

Bobby Owsinski (19:06.61)

I did a project, I don't know, four or five years ago on tape because the artist insisted on doing it on two inch 24 track. So okay, we did it on two inch 24 track and immediately saw the problem. One of the many problems. The band is out there, the band is going great, but you know, all you need is one more take.

And it's a five minute song and you look over and you have four minutes and 30 seconds of tape left. So you have to stop everything, roll it off, roll another reel on and it's 15 minutes by the time that happens. And by that time all the energy from the band is gone. So that was the first thing. The second thing was, oh let's do another vocal, oh, there's no more tracks. You know, things like that. And then suddenly it.

Brian Funk (19:45.158)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (19:58.514)

bounce.

Bobby Owsinski (20:00.014)

Rears its ugly head and you go, oh yeah, this is why we don't do this anymore. Now it sounded really good, but I attribute most of that to the fact that it was a nice old Trident TSM console it was going through. That was a sound, it wasn't the tape so much.

Brian Funk (20:05.421)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (20:16.226)

Yeah, right. Just the internal workings of it. I've done that where I just run stuff through the electronics, through the mixing console on the board, on the machine. And it's, it gets you pretty close for what you're looking for, minus a lot of those things you mentioned, which, um, yeah, I've had what I thought were great takes only to find like, there's just a problem in my tape at that point. A little.

Bobby Owsinski (20:31.882)

Yeah, yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (20:42.659)

Oh, yeah.

Brian Funk (20:44.082)

crinkle or something happened and yeah, that's a bummer. Then you're back in your DAW real fast.

Bobby Owsinski (20:52.707)

I was telling a story on my workshop where I was doing, I got a Cheap Trick live album into mix, mix and surround 5.1. And I opened up the box and it smelled kind of funny and I looked and it was all crinkly. It was AGFA, AGFA tape, German tape. And it's known for not having a long.

Brian Funk (21:05.468)

Nice.

Bobby Owsinski (21:18.934)

Longevity I was really excited about this project so like cheap trick and I should have called the record company up right away And said you know I think there's a problem. We should bake this but I thought no let's see what happens. I was young Put it on the tape machine hit rewind

Brian Funk (21:34.406)

By bake it, you mean commit it to other tape or... You actually do... That's it, I'd never...

Bobby Owsinski (21:39.43)

No, you actually bake it, you put it in a convection oven for, there's different formulas on how to do it, but usually six to 18 hours, and it helps straighten it out for at least one play. But that's common in archiving, they do that, yeah. Anyway, I hit rewind and it exploded into a thousand pieces.

Brian Funk (21:57.926)

Right.

Yeah, okay.

Bobby Owsinski (22:06.21)

So then I had to call the record label up and he said, okay, pack it all up, pack all the pieces up and send it off. And I never got to do the project. They pulled it from me. So I was young and stupid.

Brian Funk (22:06.284)

Oh no.

Brian Funk (22:19.962)

Wow.

Brian Funk (22:23.898)

Dang tape. Wow, baking it. I've heard of that, you know, I've never done that, but that's, you don't stick your computer in the convection oven.

Bobby Owsinski (22:25.057)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (22:34.282)

Yeah.

Yeah, right, well again, there are many formulas in how to do it, you know, different temperatures and different times, you know, and it's not something that I ever personally did, but you send it to specialists that do this.

Brian Funk (22:53.794)

All right, so that you're not ordering a convection oven for your new studio back in the day.

Bobby Owsinski (22:53.951)

And then then.

Yeah, yeah, right. You know, the other thing too is, if you send it to a specialist, then usually they will do the transfer to digital for you. So that's the upside of the whole thing, which I should have done, and I didn't.

Brian Funk (23:06.523)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (23:13.952)

Yeah, like you said, live and learn. I guess you're probably excited, you know, hey, let's get to this and, hmm. No longer an issue, thankfully, for the most part, unless you decide to make it an issue.

Bobby Owsinski (23:15.423)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (23:25.367)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (23:28.726)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (23:31.786)

What you were saying about some of the AI stuff, I've used some plugins that have the learn feature or they might offer you a suggestion for the snare drum. And I do like that a lot. Sometimes you get it and it's like, you know what, that sounds pretty good. And sometimes it at least gets you in the ballpark. And like you said, it's just saving time. For the work I do, I'm not...

I don't have any illusions of being like a great anything. So, um, I don't mind cutting some of the time out of some of those tasks. If that's going to help me. Cause really what I want to do is create the song. That's, that's what I'm going for. And, um, if that can get me a little closer, a little quicker, I'm all for it.

Bobby Owsinski (24:23.49)

Yeah. You know, one of the things that when we were mixing on analog, every mix would generally take a day and a half. And that's what you'd figure for an album. So you'd mix the whole day and then you come back in the next morning, do any tweaks, finish it up, and then you'd go move on to the next song. And of course we don't do that now.

And we kind of in a digital workstation, we do a round robin, you work on it for a couple hours, do you get bored and you work on another song and you come back and whatever, which is a lot more fun, I have to say. But anybody that's ever suffered through those long days, the day and a half, one of the things that you find out later is I want this to go as quickly as possible. I'll do whatever I can to make this go faster. So that's where AI can come in.

Brian Funk (25:14.436)

Mm-hmm.

Bobby Owsinski (25:18.486)

That's one of the reasons why there's a lot of mixers that now have big templates that they use. And kick drum always goes in this channel and bass always goes in this channel with the exact same processing and everything or samples, whatever it might be. So they can do it very fast. Billy Decker, for instance, in Nashville, Billy has lots of number one hits. And he claims he can do a mix in 45 minutes.

45 minutes and he has number ones to prove it.

Brian Funk (25:50.011)

Is that work coming from his studio or is he receiving that and mixing it in there? Cause that's, wow.

Bobby Owsinski (25:55.462)

No, he's getting it, he's just mixing. Yeah, so it's not like this isn't possible. It's just that you have to work that out kind of for yourself right now anyway, and how to do it, but AI can take you a long way there. That's the good part. So I'm all for it, anything that can make this process go faster. Because who wants to spend hours and hours

Brian Funk (26:09.444)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (26:19.758)

Right.

Bobby Owsinski (26:23.762)

you know, on one particular thing, trying to EQ a kick drum or something. Somebody told me a good story. So, at Stasium recently, speaking of EQing a kick drum, so he was friends with Rick Okasek from the Cars, and Rick got Mutt Lang to do his solo album.

Brian Funk (26:28.239)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (26:44.69)

Cars, yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (26:52.246)

and that was time to mix. And they ran into one another in a bar and Rick said, yeah, I'm going over to London for the mix. Two weeks later, they ran into one another in the same bar and Ed said to him, so, did he finish? Is it good? He said, no, it was driving me crazy. I had to come back. Just two weeks and he's still working on his kick drum sound.

Bobby Owsinski (27:19.658)

So, that's a little obsessive I would say. Ha ha ha.

Brian Funk (27:20.874)

Yeah, right. Yeah, I've heard stories of Mutt Lang with the cars and, you know, driving them kind of nuts. I mean, that album that he did Heartbreak City, right? So it's an amazing album, but a lot of the guys in the cars looked back on it, you know, as just very arduous and very...

Bobby Owsinski (27:27.745)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (27:48.231)

very difficult process to get there.

Bobby Owsinski (27:51.218)

I had, um, I'm all for doing things quickly and, and when it gets like that, it's no fun. I have to say, and I don't like doing it. I rather the rock and roll quick way, but I did learn, I have to say from Roger Nichols, who was Steely Dan's engineer forever and ever. And when I first moved to LA, I was with my band, we got to do some work with them and we were self producing. So it was kind of like,

Oh, that sounds good enough. Let's move on. And Roger stopped everybody and he said, how can you let that go by? And he then kind of slapped us in the face a little bit and said, look, you can't let mediocre go by. You have to do it until it's right. So from that point on, we got a more steely, Danish outlook on things.

And I remember bringing in a bass player to do an overdub. He was one of my best friends still. And he still, till this day, says, I never had a session as hard as when you guys worked me that day. Because Roger was there. We didn't want to let Roger down. And I was like, oh man, if this is what it takes to do a Steady Dan record, I don't know. I don't know if I can do this. Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (28:59.558)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (29:03.026)

All right.

Brian Funk (29:09.965)

Those are some tough shoes to fill, right? Yeah, coming from somebody with that experience. Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (29:16.237)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:19.602)

I'm with you though. I do enjoy moving fast. Um, but yeah, you're right. When you're, when you're working and especially when you're competing with the best of the best, um, there's a, there's a line that has to be drawn. And if there's something that can help us get to that line without, you know, losing our minds and losing the enjoyment, because I always kind of say, like, if you're going to be into music.

and that's something you want to do, especially as a career, you have to find a way to enjoy it. Because there's so many other safer bets. If you're in it for the money, do something safe. If you're not going to enjoy it, you might as well get yourself a nice cubicle somewhere. Don't suck the fun out of it.

Bobby Owsinski (30:03.979)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (30:07.53)

Well, when I came up, one of the things that we had was there was a very strong middle class of working musicians that were making not only a good living, but a very good living, just playing clubs. And I went through that myself. You could play every night of the week if you wanted. Of course, you're playing four or five sets a night and your tops get pretty good.

Brian Funk (30:26.179)

Hmm.

Bobby Owsinski (30:36.418)

That's a good part. You do get sick of it. So that's the downside. But I have to say, you know, a lot of us made pretty good living there for a while just doing that. What stopped the whole thing? And here's the other good part about that. That's where a lot of the legends of today learned how to do their job because you're in front of an audience.

every single night, all night. So you learn how to work in the audience and you learn stage presence and you learn all the things besides just playing your instrument. That's gone now for the most part. We don't have anything near that, especially for bands where now you're competing with solo artists and solo artists with backing tracks and DJs and whatever. So there's not as many places to learn your craft, unfortunately.

A lot of that had to do, where it first went down, I'm giving a history lesson now, where it first changed was mothers against drunk driving. A worthy cause, for sure. But what happened was, for a while, throughout the whole country, 18-year-olds were able to drink, legally drink alcohol. And because of that, they wanted to go out.

and party and being clubs, so that's why there are so many clubs all over the place. So, there are also a lot of car crashes and a lot of people that lost their life and they probably shouldn't have. So, the MAD movement moved the drinking age to 21, and when that happened, the club scene suffered drastically. And it's been suffering and suffering for various reasons.

Since then, a lot of it has to do with...

Bobby Owsinski (32:36.418)

And just the fact that there's no place you can put a club anymore. Gentrification has hurt a lot of the places where clubs used to be, used to be cheap. Insurance has hurt that. There's a lot of things that are impediments. Of course, COVID killed a lot of them. So now we're kind of in a dire strait for that. As a result, you find that there are a lot of artists that get very big on social.

TikTok for instance, will sign a big record deal because it's easy for the record label, it's path of least resistance, and they're on stage in front of large amounts of people without ever having played a gig before or having not played many. And that's not good for music. It's not good for the artists, it's not good for the audience, not good for music in general. So I lament the fact that the farm team has kind of died away.

You know, the club farm team that we used to have, it's not the same. Hopefully it'll come back. Everything cycles.

Brian Funk (33:35.698)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (33:42.678)

Yeah, yeah, it's true. That's a really interesting, I guess, you know, obviously unintentional outcome of that movement. Um, and I've noticed it in my life when I was younger, closer to 21, it was nothing to get your friends to come out to a show. They were already going to the bar. They were going to be there anyway. So it was pretty simple, but as I've gotten older, it's, uh, that's a much different story. And, um,

Bobby Owsinski (34:02.218)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:13.066)

And I think a lot of the music has changed, at least by me, where I am. Um, it seems cover bands are more the thing. People want to hear the stuff they already know. They're not adventurous young people looking for new music. Um, it's tricky. Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (34:28.158)

It's kind of always been that way in a way. The only place that you got to play your own music and could do it successfully would have been the big cities. New York, Nashville, LA, London. In England, as a matter of fact, it was rare to have a cover band. It was kind of encouraged to be, do your own thing.

and that's always been a UK thing. I think that's why they've been ahead of us in music for so much, so long. But again, if you're anywhere but those big cities, Austin is another place, chances are that you're in a cover band if you're playing. And there's nothing wrong with that. There really isn't because you get your chops and you get the audience.

Brian Funk (35:12.514)

Yeah. No, no.

Bobby Owsinski (35:22.371)

That's what I'm looking for exposure so it's a good thing. Yeah

Brian Funk (35:26.222)

Yeah, stage presence practice and yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Playing in bands too. Oh, no, that's, um, the only thing I kind of expect, I guess, is that it will go into a lot of different places. But, um, I can bring it back a little. Um, I was made a note just to say, I was very surprised to hear you say AI was good at punk rock.

Bobby Owsinski (35:31.65)

We're going a lot of different places. I don't think you expect it, right?

Bobby Owsinski (35:40.45)

Oh, OK.

Brian Funk (35:55.614)

And that's only because it's so rough around the edges and it's often sloppy. It's almost like a characteristic of it a lot of times. Why do you think that is? Is it just maybe simpler music, chord progressions, arrangements, yeah?

Bobby Owsinski (36:16.734)

It's the sound, it is the sound and the chord progressions. It's easier for AI to do the sounds because it's very distorted, it's chaotic. Noise, a lot of noise, AI's good at noise. As far as the sloppiness, no, that's not there. It's pretty robotic, what you get back. Not bad, not bad at all. Just, it's, you know, sounds like a good studio recording.

Brian Funk (36:34.322)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Bobby Owsinski (36:42.526)

Well, I shouldn't say that because that's another downfall of AI is the audio quality is marginal a lot of times. You'll find that beginners in the music business or consumers will really be impressed. Go to loudly, boomy, refusion, any of those and play with them for a little bit. And yeah, you'll be impressed with it, but.

Brian Funk (36:43.046)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (37:09.458)

when you actually get the track and put it in the studio and you go, that sounds pretty bad. And the reason why, and this is something that nobody understands, or I shouldn't say that, they don't realize, and it's not brought to the forefront enough what's happening here.

Brian Funk (37:15.867)

Hmm.

Bobby Owsinski (37:28.338)

When you ask Mid Journey, Dolly, any of those, draw me a picture of a fantastic night on a steed. It only has to generate it once.

when you ask one of the AI.

Figur generators, wizard, rotor.

Well, they generate 30 times a second.

When you ask an AI music generator, it's doing it 44,100 times a second. So it requires a lot of horsepower.

Bobby Owsinski (38:17.778)

And most of the time, what it has to do is it has to use masking effects to throw away a lot of the data like MP3s. That's what you're getting essentially. You're getting a poor quality MP3 because it's flipping away data because it just can't keep up so much. And that's why the highest resolution that you can get from any of these platforms is 44.1 16-bit. That's it.

Brian Funk (38:18.15)

That's an interesting point.

Brian Funk (38:33.511)

Hmm.

Bobby Owsinski (38:42.318)

Okay, CD quality. But then they usually make you pay, well, not usually, they always make you pay for it. Some of the other stuff is free, but you'll have to pay for that. And mightfully so, it takes a lot of computer power to do that. It's also a reason why you'll find that

Most of the platforms that are really good at doing this have deep pockets, because they need it. They need it just for the amount of computing power that they have, and also for the training. In AI, it's not so much building the platform, building the AI, there are tools that anybody can use to do that. Now, do you have to be a programmer or an engineer? Yeah, you should be.

That being said, it's not that because the tools are cheap. It's the training. It takes a long time and is really expensive. So anytime you get a model that's trained and trained well, a chat GPT for instance, there's boatloads of money behind that, open AI, and more and more coming in all the time. Or you have Bard with Google or Bing AI with Microsoft.

And there you go, you have Claude with Anthropic, which big money.

There are now large language models that are coming out that, for instance, Meta, Facebook, has just released a large language model. And anybody can use this. And what it is the API, so you have to be some other engineer to use it. But that being said, they have it in three levels, and it's three levels of training, and it's open source. So anybody can use this.

Bobby Owsinski (40:43.11)

so you can actually have it running on your computer. Okay, great. But what do you want to do with it? And do you have enough computing power in order to do it? If you have a very specific instance that's very, very narrow, you won't have the problem, it will do a good job. As soon as you begin to expand that, oh, I need to do a lot of things at once, not gonna work so well for you.

The other thing that's not gonna work so well is the type of training material, because large language model is language. So I want music. Well, okay, where are you gonna get the training for the music? And now it's not so easy as just scraping the internet like it was before, because everybody's hip to it. Now you have to buy a license if you want really good stuff.

therein lies the problem. Not a problem, it's a good problem. It's a good problem, good for musicians, good for songwriters, it's a good thing. But if you're trying to do your own AI, you know, that's gonna be an impediment.

Brian Funk (41:45.702)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:55.206)

That's a really interesting, that could be like the thing that solves a lot of problems for musicians. If there's some licensing to using their work as the training for the AI. Are there platforms and things set up for that already? You mentioned it.

Are people already licensing music for training? Because I always kind of thought the training of the AI was kind of like, let the thing run, and it'll kind of gather information on its own. You have no idea what it's really grabbing. It's just whatever is accessible.

Bobby Owsinski (42:33.366)

Well, yes, but now there's a lot of lawsuits about this. There are four major ones between Europe and the United States, and there's probably more, but there's four major ones that are talking primarily about this, about the licensing, or lack of licensing for the training material. And again, what's happening, there's enough people that are hip to this now, that are really searching.

for Elton John for instance. Okay, did you use any of Elton's stuff for training? If someone, you'll take notice now, you cannot do this on many platforms where you can go say, make me a song in...

Bobby Owsinski (43:20.662)

in the image of Elton John, Bernie Taubman. And it'll just refuse because of the possible lawsuits. So, I call it possible infringement. This is going to be worked out, but it's going to take a while.

The United States is actually pretty far behind on this. Japan, China, and Europe are way ahead.

Europe is very, very stringent. They're basically saying, okay, we're gonna stop all this training. Gonna stop now. This is what the proposed law is. Japan is saying, hey, anything goes. You can do whatever. They're being very loose on it. And I'm paraphrasing in all this, obviously there's more to it than all of them. And China is somewhere in the middle. China says, you know what, we're going to be very...

We're gonna be restrictive on this in the commercial consumer sector. But for research or military, hey, anything goes. So, and it's probably, as far as military's concerned, it's probably like that in the other countries as well. But you can see where, you know, there's a big split on how this is going to work. I suspect what will happen is the very first country that passes the law.

will influence the other ones.

Bobby Owsinski (44:54.038)

but we'll have to see how that works out. The United States might follow. Europe may not. EU tends to do their own thing regardless, but we'll have to see how that shakes out. But it's going to happen soon. Not in the United States, unfortunately. Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:11.71)

has to, right? Yeah, well, it has to. I mean, I remember just a couple of months ago, there was a Drake AI song that came out, right? And it was pretty popular and people had seen with the mind that it sounded like Drake was very, wasn't Drake at all, but was trained on him. And it was like, yeah, this passes the test of a decent Drake song.

Bobby Owsinski (45:22.728)

Oh yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (45:39.042)

There was even a website in AI, it was fakedrake.ai that you can go and it didn't last very long, that got taken down fast, but it was there for a bit.

Brian Funk (45:48.61)

Right. Yeah. Well, there's an obvious like copyright kind of infringement thing going on there when it's specifically to the artist or if there I've seen some platforms come out that can generate vocals and that sound like other artists. And I think those are all licensed at this point, but

Bobby Owsinski (46:05.13)

Oh, sure.

Bobby Owsinski (46:09.706)

Solaris is the big one. And yes, those are all licensed. And you do pay for it. I think it's at the very cheapest, it's $99 a song. But if you want a singer to sing your stuff using AI and it'd be perfect, then it's a way to go. You find a lot of these platforms tend to lean more Chinese and Japanese. They have a lot of those artists.

So that's more the sound you get. But there are American ones. I actually had somebody that copied my voice and from a podcast because it's very easy. It's just me talking. Yeah, and they trained it, trained an AI, and then sent it to me. And it was me doing a podcast that I never did.

Brian Funk (46:52.046)

Right? Hours and hours and hours.

Brian Funk (47:03.922)

All right, oh wow.

Bobby Owsinski (47:05.034)

And I said, you know, please don't release this in the wild. And luckily, it was an experiment and they didn't, but just goes to show you.

Brian Funk (47:11.004)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:15.015)

I can only imagine. I mean, you've done plenty of podcasts. I've done plenty as well that people could probably put them out and I might not even know if I really did that or not. Maybe. Did I just not remember that one?

Bobby Owsinski (47:26.218)

Yeah, yeah, all right. Yeah, of course.

Bobby Owsinski (47:35.158)

But the technology's there, it's being used. Some of it's better than others. Let's put it like that. Some of the technology is really good and it's breathtaking. In the other hand, you have some that's just, you know, kind of, let's say sensationalistic. So you have to determine.

Brian Funk (47:53.622)

I think some artists are leaning into that. Grimes, I believe, did something where you can actually use her voice in your songs. Yeah, that's Solaris. Okay.

Bobby Owsinski (48:03.554)

She's on Solaris, yes.

Bobby Owsinski (48:08.334)

Yeah, I think she's on her own side as well, but Solaris also has her voice there. So there's a number of them that will do that. There are some that will do you as well. So it'll take a sample of you and just make you better. That's okay too, it's like better than autotune.

Brian Funk (48:32.89)

Right? I came across a video of Joe Biden and Donald Trump singing Sultans of Swing by Dire Straits. And the thing that impressed me about it was I wouldn't have known, honestly, I really think, because it was done in a way where they didn't sound like expert professional singers, but it was good enough. Like it was passable. And it was just like...

Bobby Owsinski (48:40.268)

Oh, that's funny.

Brian Funk (49:01.234)

I had this like, how do I know what's real anymore? Moment where, because I've seen other videos with presidents playing like call of duty against each other and cursing at each other, like you recognize the voice. You say, Oh, I know whose voice that is.

Bobby Owsinski (49:19.586)

There is a movement here to watermark that stuff to show you that it's a fake. But the only problem is you can deep fake the watermark as well. So there's always a way around it. That being said, for most things it could work, but we'll have to see how far that goes.

Brian Funk (49:30.81)

Right. It's just a catch-up.

Brian Funk (49:40.678)

could get interesting with an election coming up in about a year from now. And who knows what we're basing our decisions on.

Bobby Owsinski (49:43.095)

Mm, yeah, yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (49:54.426)

Yeah, you know, again, with all this stuff, if you're smart and you take the time to actually drill down, you can usually figure it out. What worries me is people that don't do that and fall for anything that's sensationalistic and don't think twice about it. And it happens a lot.

Brian Funk (49:56.331)

So you're.

Brian Funk (50:15.386)

It's already happening with just headlines. People see a headline and they don't even look at an article to have an opinion on something.

Bobby Owsinski (50:21.25)

people that attacked me. That's what's happening. I mean, they looked at the headlines and the headlines are basically, musicians are not going to have a job. You're going to be usurped. Whatever you're doing, AI is now going to be doing it instead and they believe it.

Brian Funk (50:25.931)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:41.83)

How do you handle that? Do you engage? Do you just step back? Are you responding to this type of stuff? Yeah. I've kind of taken the...

Bobby Owsinski (50:47.454)

No, no, never engage.

The rule of thumb on that is if you engage, they win. Now, I do have a really good friend who went to a comedy school, specifically to learn how to deal with hecklers.

Brian Funk (50:58.446)

Uh huh. Right.

Brian Funk (51:10.747)

Right.

Bobby Owsinski (51:12.306)

and she actually got on the stage at the Comedy Store and everything here to do her thing and hoping that there'd be hecklers. There wasn't when I saw her, but she's so good online. She can't wait until there's a heckler. And what she'll do is she'll engage once and then done. But usually the humor is so cutting that everybody kinda hopes, okay, who's gonna heckler today so we can see what happens? But no, the general.

Brian Funk (51:21.35)

just to practice.

Brian Funk (51:38.79)

Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. Heh.

Bobby Owsinski (51:41.583)

rule on that is don't engage

Brian Funk (51:44.59)

Mm-hmm. I've, you know, over time you get stuff here and there. And I'll either not or sometimes I'll...

I'm really sorry this upset you so much. It's not the intention. I've never had anybody double down. I've had people say, hey, I didn't think you'd ever read this or I was just fooling around my friend, and or I'm sorry I was in a bad mood, my dog just ran away or whatever else. Which is for me encouraging to think that, okay, so it's not just like a bunch of maniacs.

evil people running around. They're humans that had like a moment, which I can understand. We're not always our best at all times. So a little bit of hope.

Bobby Owsinski (52:28.907)

Yeah, yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (52:38.634)

Yeah. Now in an email, yes, I get that. That's worth being nice. Nice reply can change things. Online, no. No, you're better off not to engage.

Brian Funk (52:47.046)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:53.923)

Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's a good strategy. I think a lot of people even just don't even look at that stuff sometimes too, because there's a point where we're, I guess, if you hit a certain level of fame and notoriety where you're just receiving too much.

criticism, validation, praise that we've just not evolved to handle on that level. It's unhealthy. Do you mind telling us about the course, the AI workshop, where people can find it and what they can expect to see in there?

Bobby Owsinski (53:17.47)

Yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree.

Bobby Owsinski (53:30.13)

Well, there are two parts. The AI workshop is actually over. It was a three-day live workshop with me. First day was we talked about the basics of AI and kind of talked about many of the things that people get wrong with it, demystifying it, the buzzwords that people hear, think are interchangeable but aren't. Second day was all about AI plugins.

and I demonstrated a lot of them, audio plugins and some production plugins. And the third day was a little bit about using AI for marketing, which is music marketing, which is very good at that, providing that you give it the right prompts and the prompt engineering is an important part of it. So that was kind of an introduction, I'm sorry.

Brian Funk (54:24.476)

There's a place I'd love to save time. The whole marketing and social media aspect of.

Bobby Owsinski (54:26.705)

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Well, there's a lot of tricks. I can give you some if you want.

Bobby Owsinski (54:38.302)

Yeah, okay, I was waiting for, see if you wanted them, yeah.

Brian Funk (54:40.161)

Yeah. Of course. Please. I hate doing that stuff.

Bobby Owsinski (54:44.966)

Yeah, okay. So the first thing is you should always put at the end and you hit on something before.

Bobby Owsinski (55:00.831)

Please answer this in a way that a high school, someone with a high school education can understand. You ask it to be as simple as possible and also ask it to be as concrete and as lucid as it can be.

Otherwise it can go off into academic speak. So, you want to hold it back. The one thing that's really important at the end, what do you understand?

Brian Funk (55:40.53)

Hmm. Ask the... the AI.

Bobby Owsinski (55:43.162)

Ask, yeah. Well, you know, with ChatGPT, I know a lot of people, I do it myself anymore, they just call it Chatty. And you start out and say, hello Chatty, it's Bobby. Now, one of the things that does is it does make it remember who you are. But that being said, there's a new feature on ChatGPT 4 that you can do that. So you can go in and you can say, I'm Brian Funk, I'm a high school English teacher.

Everything I ask has to be in the context of 10th grade English and you give it all those instructions so you have to do it once and you don't have to do it every time. So that's a brand new feature but it's only available in ChatGPT 4. Because otherwise you would have to do that. For marketing, you know, the best thing, you'd go in and you'd say,

Brian Funk (56:25.831)

Oh, that's cool. Wow. Hmm.

Brian Funk (56:36.635)

Mm-hmm.

Bobby Owsinski (56:42.398)

I'm an artist, I'm a heavy metal artist, and my avatar is these are the people. This is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get an audience that likes ACDC and likes Judas Priest, and you go and you say, here's the parameters. This is what I'm trying, this is who I am. This is what I'm trying to do. And.

Can you help me do this in such a way that I can understand? So in a nutshell, that's what it is. I have a whole thing on prompt engineering actually. So I didn't finish. So anyway, the workshop was the first part. It was kind of lead into the AI for Music Production course that I'm now giving right now. We've closed the enrollment on that for now. We'll probably do it later in the year again. But.

What it is six modules. The first one is all about the basics, not only of AI, but consumer platforms that people kind of understand that try to show why it's a consumer platform. Number two is all about AI composition and production. Composition meaning, okay,

I don't want you to write a song for me, but I want you to either make it better or give me some ideas I didn't have before. To me, that's where it's at. It's not where, you know, just make me a song like Drake. It's give me some ideas. This is what I'm trying to do. Here's my chord change. Is there a turnaround that I didn't think of? And sometimes you get these amazing results. Same thing with lyrics. It's saying, and there's many, many lyric generators, but I like ChatGBT best.

because it's fast, fastest. But you can go in and say, I want to write a song about this. This is the way that the main person is feeling.

Bobby Owsinski (58:51.81)

This is the setting. He's in a bedroom at night, thinking about his girlfriend in California. And you just put the whole setting together. And it's important not to say, write the lyrics of the song, it's important to say, write an intro of two verses, two choruses, an outro, and a bridge. Otherwise, it'll just spit stuff out. So you'd be very specific about it.

It's gonna write something and you're gonna go, this is pretty much mediocre. Oh, but this is great. And you'll find a couple of words or phrases and you go, oh yeah, this I could really use. Another thing is, let's make sure we regenerate it a second time or a third time. Oh, and by the way, let's go try it on Bard. Let's go try it in Bing AI. Let's go try it on Claude, see what we get. Because sometimes you get.

Brian Funk (59:36.614)

Right.

Bobby Owsinski (59:50.146)

gems and one that you don't get on the others. So.

Brian Funk (59:54.418)

It's like having a collaborator. I've written songs with my band, and we're, all right, this song's about this idea, and what are some things, like you mentioned a bedroom, you might, looking out the window, staring at the ceiling, under the covers, and you say, oh, okay, we can, yeah. So it's a lot like just having other minds throwing out thoughts and ideas.

Bobby Owsinski (59:56.108)

Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (01:00:07.831)

Perfect.

Bobby Owsinski (01:00:13.886)

Yep. So anyway, we go over, you know, all that and then AI production, production meaning, okay, how can I make this song sound better? And for now, there's a lot of, of AIs out there that will change sounds for you. That will give you something that sounds different or better. Uh, okay. I have this vocal. Can you make it sound like a sax and kind of sort of will.

That could be close enough for you. Maybe not. Okay, let's change these drums into something that no one's ever heard before and it can do it. Then in the third module, it's all about AI for audio. And this is just, okay, we're mixing. Let's try the AI EQ tools, the AI reverb tools, the AI compression tools, AI gates. What else do we have?

AI limiters. Let's look at all these and see how they work and see what we can do to make them better. The fourth module is AI for mixing and mastering. AI for mixing isn't quite there because what happens is the ones that are available are usually with stems and it's four stems they can do. Oh, it's a vocal. Here's the bed. Here's the, the baseline and here's the rhythm.

So basically that's what you get to mix. But what it does do is.

Bobby Owsinski (01:01:49.21)

It does things like unmasking really well. Unmasking meaning I have two sounds and they're both a lot of the same frequencies. You're covering one up. And you can say, okay, can you do something with this AI? And it will. All of a sudden you'll hear both of them. So it's really good at that. And then mastering. And mastering AI is actually really good at right now. But there are some tricks to make it better.

and you know I go through that. The fifth is all about AI marketing. And what is AI marketing? Well, it's first of all, making music and lyric videos, quickly and easily. It's how about graphics? Graphics for posts, graphics for album covers, things like that. Branding.

there are some really good branding AIs out there. Branding meaning I need a logo, I have some merch, let's make the merch look good and put it in a place where people wanna buy it. And marketing, the marketing being, okay, let's make a marketing plan for this next release. Can you lay it out for me? And again, you have to give it a really good prompt.

and you also have to try different platforms, but it's pretty good. And then the sixth is kind of tying it all together, and then I show you how to put together a couple different tool sets. And that's what the AI for Music Production course is, but again, it's closed right now, but we'll open it up again soon.

Brian Funk (01:03:35.41)

That sounds awesome. I mean, it's like the entire process from idea generation to how are you going to market it? Um, it's pretty cool. And obviously you've done a ton of research to get all that information. And I know with, with all the stuff coming out, it can be really overwhelming. So it's gotta be great to have it.

put together and specific to creating music laid out for you, a little path to follow.

Bobby Owsinski (01:04:05.639)

You can go down the rabbit hole pretty easily, that's for sure.

Brian Funk (01:04:08.398)

I bet. Yes, with so many things, right? It's awesome. I'm very interested in it myself. So I'll be keeping an ear open for when that enrollment shows up again.

Bobby Owsinski (01:04:10.334)

I've done that. Yeah.

Bobby Owsinski (01:04:24.894)

Yeah, he'll come back later sometime. Cool.

Brian Funk (01:04:29.026)

So there's plenty of places to find you on the internet. If you look up the Inner Circle podcast, I highly recommend that. It's one of my regular listens, music 3.0 blog. I'm going to put all these in the show notes. Is there any place you like to send people to find out about you? Is it just your website, the main spot or somewhere you prefer?

Bobby Owsinski (01:04:49.858)

Yeah, usually BobbyOscinski.com and you know, everything kinda leads from there.

Brian Funk (01:04:55.77)

It all leads from there. Yeah. Excellent. Really cool to talk to you. As a fan of yours and someone that's appreciated your work for a long time, it's been a lot of fun. It's, there's almost that surreal aspect of feeling like I'm in a virtual podcast of yours as we speak. I really enjoyed it and I thank you for your time very much.

Bobby Owsinski (01:05:17.186)

Thanks for inviting me, Brian. I enjoyed talking with you as well.

Brian Funk (01:05:21.842)

Thanks to the listeners for listening in. Hope you guys have a great day.

podcastBrian Funkmusic production podcast